FTR rules question

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GSoD

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Hey there,

I'm sitting here looking at a remple ski-pod, specifically the skis on it. I was thinking I could have them ride in some sort of grove system back and forth with the recoil.

Would this be in contradiction of:

"The F/TR rifle bipod and rear bag may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to its point of aim for the previous shot. The rifle, bipod or rear rest may, however, incorporate an integral mechanism for raising and lowering either the butt or fore- end provided that it does not contravene rule F2.3. above."

I'm presuming not because its not part of the bipod (its going to be a ground plate the bipod is going to rest on) and I don't believe it provides positive mechanical anything.

Thoughts?

PS - Yes its winter and I'm itching for the snow to go away so we can all get back to shooting guns instead of typing about them.
 
The Rempel already slides in groves.....they are grass and dirt. 17-22 rounds in one place will do that. What is being mentioned here is a machine rest.
 
Sean, there is something in the rules (not sure where) about anything you put under the bipod must be able to conform to the landscape.

Now, this can be interpreted a thousand different ways.

A piece of carpet is legal, and after a few shots it does create a "track"that the skis ride in.

I know the Team Savage guys use a thin plexi glass that is extendable (there is something in the rules about width as well).
 
I have to admit, I've been doing this for five years or so and have never looked at a rule book!

The only other thing I could find in a rule book at icfra.com was "Any number and type of object(s) (of any material) may be placed beneath each rest to compensate for variations in the height, slope or surface of the firing point, also beneath and around any rear sandbag or beanbag to reduce its rolling, but such objects may not touch the rifle fore-end or butt."

I've seen people shoot with metal plates and boards under their bipods (of course if they're doing so legally I guess is another matter - but I presume so).

Does anyone have a link to the DCRA rules? I've gone through that website a bunch of times but can't seem to find it. I'm sure one must be there, but it eludes me.
 
Interesting question. It seems to me that a steel plate under the pod, grooved to accept the skis such that the skis may only move fore and aft, does indeed provide a positive mechanical mechanism for returning the rifle to it's previous position by virtue of the fact they would eliminate side to side motion.
You'd also have to provide grooves for every elevation setting, otherwise you'd only be able to shoot at the elevation provided for by the distance between the grooves, or am I missing something?
 
stevebc said:
Interesting question. It seems to me that a steel plate under the pod, grooved to accept the skis such that the skis may only move fore and aft, does indeed provide a positive mechanical mechanism for returning the rifle to it's previous position by virtue of the fact they would eliminate side to side motion.
You'd also have to provide grooves for every elevation setting, otherwise you'd only be able to shoot at the elevation provided for by the distance between the grooves, or am I missing something?
Click to expand...

BINGO, it is not an issue because there is no 'simple' base that can be used to compensate for the changes in leg spread for varying elevation changes.

ALL ski pods move their legs in and out to compensate for vertical. Unless those grooves can move with the feet, you are in a world of hurt.

So unless you can adjust the spacing of the groove to a few thou at the SAME rate as the vertical of the pod, how can it track?

Wide feet on carpet is about as high tech as needed.

Jerry

PS for those using the Sinclair pod, that would be an interesting option and I am sure someone will complain if it ever came up.
 
Every firing position at one firing point can be different let alone different ranges.

You would be hard pressed to use a 1 piece application, but an expandable piece could fit the bill provided it meets rules and regulations.

The rule I referred to earlier MAY be a US rule but I thought I had read it in ICFRA rules.
 
To answer the elevation problem, the rear bag needs a thumb wheel, since your hand is right there anyway.
Would be a nice accessory for your pod Jerry.

not enough attention is given to the bag. lol, sometimes a little powder, and that's about it.

I think I'm going to invent a super bag, have it made in Indonesia, & charge a fortune for it.



Marshal
 
All I can find:

F2.3. An F/TR Class rifle is limited to .223 Remington or .308 Winchester calibre chambers or
their commercial metrification equivalents. Chamber dimensions must conform to SAAMI
or CIP dimensions. Ammunition may be commercially made or hand-loaded as defined in
Rule F2.24. There is no restriction on bullet weight. The F/TR rifle class is limited to the
use of an attached bipod and/or a sling as front supports, optionally together with a rear bag
none of which provide a positive mechanical means of returning the rifle to its precise point
of aim for the next shot . The overall weight must not exceed 8.25kg including all
attachments (such as, but not limited to, its sights and bipod, if any). NB: An ‘attachment’ is
defined as in Rule F2.2. All other Technical Rules apply.

and

F2.19. Any number and type of object(s) (of any material) may be placed beneath each rest to
compensate for variations in the height, slope or surface of the firing point, also beneath and
around any rear sandbag or beanbag to reduce its rolling, but such objects may not touch the
rifle fore-end or butt.

Either of which do not rule out your intentions as what you propose does not mechanically return the rifle to POA (this is referring to a railgun type system).

Here are the US Rules (Put in laymen terms, I can't find a proper US NRA Rules PDF):

There are some restrictions on what sort of bipod support may be used. If the mat or carpet remnant (very common), or plastic sheet (also very common) can be rolled up (ie, very flexible, conforming to the contour of the firing position), it can be of any width. If the bipod is supported on a plate, or plank (ie. rigid), the plank can only be 2 inches wider than the footprint of the bipod, as used on the firing line.

This is where the 2 piece movable/expandable plate comes in handy.
 
Grinch said:
The Rempel already slides in groves.....they are grass and dirt. 17-22 rounds in one place will do that. What is being mentioned here is a machine rest.
Click to expand...

All good until you shoot it on a firing line with 4-6" of pea or chip gravel, then the bipod sinks so far into the topping that you are adjusting the bipod every shot, this is where a piece of carpet comes in handy.

Figured this one out in Sacremento at the 1000yd line, had to steal a chunk of carpet off Ron Herms that he had laying around....LOL
 
marshman said:
To answer the elevation problem, the rear bag needs a thumb wheel, since your hand is right there anyway.
Would be a nice accessory for your pod Jerry.

not enough attention is given to the bag. lol, sometimes a little powder, and that's about it.

I think I'm going to invent a super bag, have it made in Indonesia, & charge a fortune for it.



Marshal
Click to expand...

Already been designed. I just need to find the time to build it.

Yes, a rear adjustment would be a cat's meow. right now, squeezing is working.

Jerry
 
CyaN1de said:
All good until you shoot it on a firing line with 4-6" of pea or chip gravel, then the bipod sinks so far into the topping that you are adjusting the bipod every shot, this is where a piece of carpet comes in handy.

Figured this one out in Sacremento at the 1000yd line, had to steal a chunk of carpet off Ron Herms that he had laying around....LOL
Click to expand...

I love it. We all have thousands of dollars in the highest/bestest gear we can put on the line.

Where the actual technology is in the scrap piece of indoor outdoor carpet we can borrow.:runaway:

If you want a pod that tracks, simple solution - put feet on your pod that looks like angle iron upside down.

Use channel stock for even better steering. 1/4" thick should be enough.

Unless the rules have changed, we should be allowed to use spikes no deeper then 1/2" (correct if wrong).

Jerry
 
Not to hihjack the thread but I've also got aquestion about the rules.


For F-Open it says anything under 8mm and excludes 'magnums'. Does this mean nothing with 'magnum' in the name? I was looking at a 7mm WSM but I'm not sure what the rules are about short mags.
 
Mystic Precision said:
BINGO, it is not an issue because there is no 'simple' base that can be used to compensate for the changes in leg spread for varying elevation changes.

ALL ski pods move their legs in and out to compensate for vertical. Unless those grooves can move with the feet, you are in a world of hurt.

So unless you can adjust the spacing of the groove to a few thou at the SAME rate as the vertical of the pod, how can it track?

Wide feet on carpet is about as high tech as needed.

Jerry

PS for those using the Sinclair pod, that would be an interesting option and I am sure someone will complain if it ever came up.
Click to expand...

'Simple' solution is a 'simple' base with one groove - one pod rides in a groove, the other pod free ranges. One pod and the bag can control the fore-aft motion. Elevation change will case the front of the gun to move sideways but that can be nullified by a movement in the rear bag or a cam on the front attaching to the rail...new problem..
 
If the bipod is running in a groove you are breaking the rules. Show up at a match and you will need to quickly come up with a different way to do it!

I have done many thumbwheel adjustable rear rails, works great. You need an easy way to do fine adjustments to either the front or the rear and this does the rear.
 
Ian Robertson said:
If the bipod is running in a groove you are breaking the rules
Click to expand...

So it is this rule being broken: "may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to its point of aim for the previous shot"?

Richard: Are you able to find a reference for that 2" rule? I've heard that before, but haven't been able to find it in print.
 
From the 2009 ICFRA F-Class Rule Book:

F2.20.1. The F/TR bipod may have up to two “feet”. Each such “foot” may terminate in a
spike, which may be pressed into the ground by up to 50mm (about 2”) provided
this causes no significant permanent harm or indentation to the firing point. A
“ski” facilitating free recoil is also permitted.
 
So therefore its incorrect that " If the bipod is supported on a plate, or plank (ie. rigid), the plank can only be 2 inches wider than the footprint of the bipod, as used on the firing line."

As previously mentioned? Or is that rule somewhere else?
 
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