Full auto fun or near miss?

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Glock4ever

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So I was going over my 2007 Norinco M14S again yesterday and noticed that the trigger didn't reset after firing the rifle and cocking the action with the trigger in the rearward position. The first thing I thought was that it was odd so I pulled out my Springfield M1A and pulled the trigger, cocked the action and it was the exact opposite. So the first thing I did was remove the Norc from the stock and reassemble it without a stock and sure enough the trigger reset properly when it was just a barrelled action and trigger. I then tried swapping stocks with the Springfield M1A (the Norinco was in a Walnut M1A stock and the Springfield in a Synthetic M1A stock) and the trigger reset problem re-emerged in the new M1A stock. So I wanted to see if this was a problem from the factory and re-installed the original Chu Wood stock and sure enough the trigger reset worked perfectly. To make a long story short, I had to increase the inlet within the M1A walnut stock to get the action to sit deeper into the stock. I re-assembled the rifle and cycled the action over 100 times (this was fun) to see if the problem would re-surface but it hasn't. I am still a bit wary so I am going to avoid shooting this rifle until I am 100 percent certain that the reset issue doesn't repeat. I don't know if this is a common problem with Norinco/DA/Chinese M14/M305 rifles and Springfield parts but I thought I put the warning out there to CHECK YOUR TRIGGER RESET WHEN SWAPPING STOCKS. I am not a total newbie but I almost took the rifle out and shot it without the function test because I assumed the part interoperability was kosher (Morpheus' sticky is really relevant here) and I don't know what would have happened if I hadn't caught this problem. So the questions I have are:

Would I have just fired in full auto safely? OR

Did I just avoid taking the risk of an out of battery firing? The sear wasn't catching at all so this wouldn't have been a slam fire, holding the trigger down was always resulting in the hammer travelling forward. I am not certain how the M14's auto sear worked (i.e. if there was some sort of timing involved or if it just blocked the trigger reset from catching)
 
I am told it will lead to an out of battery detonation and is a dangerous condition.

I think it's a Norinco issue. Every Norc receiver I placed in a stock different from the one it came with failed the function test and required fitting by the removing of material from the stock (or in one case, the wings of the trigger housing) to restore proper function.
 
Your rifle can't fire "full auto"
Full auto is a mechanical function controlled with parts that maintain a precise cyclic rate. Your rifle does not have these parts.

Uncontrolled or out of battery or any other malfunction you may or may not have experienced is due to incorrectly fitting your action to a stock that requires modification for the chinese receiver.
The chinese receiver is different in a few places where it meets the top of the stock. This topic has been covered extensively.
M1A , boyds, wenigs ect plastic and wood stocks "require" modification to the top right bearing surface to correctly fit a norinco receiver.
 
According to this youtube vid of the function of the Auto Selector - it looks like the sear is blocked from engaging the rear trigger catch. If the rear trigger catch isn't engaging the sear because of the stock isn't it just basically that same? To be clear, this is a hypothetical question because it would be illegal to have a full auto M14. I was just plain curious to know if the rifle would be basically a full auto rifle or a kaboom waiting to happen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kgnh4neVaY
 
Chances are the hammer would have rode (ridden?) Forward with the bolt causing a light strike. Soft primers have a chance of going off and if that happens there is a good chance the gun can go boom. Basically what you had there is what people who have no clue about firearms think will let them turn their guns to "full auto". Usually ot results in them having to buy a new sear and sometimes requires a visit to the er for a sewing lesson.
 
That's not full auto, that's either a slam fire or an out of battery discharge. Winchester (1897???) pump shotguns will slam fire. Ithaca 37's also do itWith SOME slam fires? You'll be okay as long as the muzzle is ALWAYS pointed in a safe direction down range. With an OBD? You could be in serious trouble by blowing apart your rifle, need a trip to the ER... or worse.

ALWAYS POINT IN A SAFE DIRECTION!

Function check should be the 5th rule of gun safety. They always talk about the big 4 in the PAL/RPAL courses but they didn't address function checks very much which could also save a life, or as in this video? Save you a costly repair bill and explaining to the police WTF just happened and possibly getting nailed!

I just about died laughing watching this fool (trigger discipline, not verifying whether it was loaded) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKTrN02R9c0 ( <---- just for laughs only)


Now this guy, made the mistake the mistake of putting his finger ALL OVER THE TRIGGER, he doesn't realize he's going it and he even puts a shell in it! Birdshot, but still!


"You press the trigger down..."

(wait for it...)
 
It's a timing issue. On an fully automatic M14, the auto sear doesn't trip the hammer until the bolt is fully closed. If the hammer rides back up along the backside of the bolt, it may push the firing pin forward which in turn can slam fire a round before the bolt fully locks closed, causing an out of battery detonation.
 
The original usgi design had portions of the receiver that semi auto M14 type rifles do not have. Without these portions and the associated parts, the rifle can not fire "full auto". It can be made to malfunction and fire without control, which is not "cyclicly timed full auto". Big difference.
The parts associated with the original design , controlled the rate of fire when full auto was selected, making the function a safe operation.

Repeating what I've already said, if your semi auto only M14 type rifle fires repeatedly with one trigger pull, you have a serious malfunction, not full auto.
Watch any youtube video you want, or take the advice right here from those who know
 
45ACPKING said:
The original usgi design had portions of the receiver that semi auto M14 type rifles do not have. Without these portions and the associated parts, the rifle can not fire "full auto". It can be made to malfunction and fire without control, which is not "cyclicly timed full auto". Big difference.
The parts associated with the original design , controlled the rate of fire when full auto was selected, making the function a safe operation.

Repeating what I've already said, if your semi auto only M14 type rifle fires repeatedly with one trigger pull, you have a serious malfunction, not full auto.
Watch any youtube video you want, or take the advice right here from those who know
Click to expand...

Could also be an issue with the out of battery safety being jammed. Either way, it's important to function check with snap caps.
 
Generally what happens when a guy installs a stock meant for an M1A , without modding the right rear bearing area of top of stock to match the norinco receiver.... The action sits high on one side, and as the rifle cycles, the bolt doesn't push the hammer down far enough to engage the rear hammer hooks after each shot. Creating possible out of battery or uncontrolled fire.
Take it from an expert, rumour has it I have a smidge of an idea on how these rifles operate ;)

Usgi stocks with selector cutouts and most of the aluminum chassis stocks made for the M14 do not have these issues.
Primarily the wood and synthetic stocks made for US rifles like the M1A, JRA, LRB ect which have areas machined on the bottom side that the chinese receiver does not. Primarily the right side receiver bearing plane, at the rear.
If you have an opportunity to examine a US made receiver, side by side with a norinco, you will quickly discover what I mean.
 
45ACPKING has it right. The hammer isn't getting pushed back far enough for the rear hammer hooks to engage the disconnector, which is the part that holds the hammer in the cocked position until the trigger is released and the front hammer hooks can then bear on the trigger sear face. The result is that the hammer follows the bolt forward potentially creating a slam fire. Getting the height relationship correct between the receiver and the trigger housing solves this issue.
 
Glock4ever said:
Would I have just fired in full auto safely? OR

Did I just avoid taking the risk of an out of battery firing?
Click to expand...

There were actually three possibilities, the two you mention above and the third that the hammer would ride the bolt into battery resulting in a light strike and the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

Primers are generally hard enough to avoid detonating following a light strike but you never know, some brands or lots of primers could be soft enough to allow this to happen, making the gun full auto (Sorry 45ACPKing, I don't really buy into the distinction you've drawn that auto needs to be mechanically regulated before I'm allowed to call it auto).

The M14 design is intended to have a safety bridge in the receiver that blocks the hammer from contacting the firing pin before the bolt is locked, eliminating the threat of out of battery events. But this bridge is known to often be out of spec on Chinese guns, so that it doesn't function. If you have one of these, out of battery discharge is possible, and if you had also had some of those soft primers mentioned above it could have actually happened.

So full auto was a low probability result.
Out of battery event was a very low probability result.
Hammer down on a loaded chamber was the very high probability outcome, and the one the gun was designed to produce in such a circumstance.
 
BattleRife said:
There were actually three possibilities, the two you mention above and the third that the hammer would ride the bolt into battery resulting in a light strike and the hammer down on a loaded chamber.

Primers are generally hard enough to avoid detonating following a light strike but you never know, some brands or lots of primers could be soft enough to allow this to happen, making the gun full auto (Sorry 45ACPKing, I don't really buy into the distinction you've drawn that auto needs to be mechanically regulated before I'm allowed to call it auto).

The M14 design is intended to have a safety bridge in the receiver that blocks the hammer from contacting the firing pin before the bolt is locked, eliminating the threat of out of battery events. But this bridge is known to often be out of spec on Chinese guns, so that it doesn't function. If you have one of these, out of battery discharge is possible, and if you had also had some of those soft primers mentioned above it could have actually happened.

So full auto was a low probability result.
Out of battery event was a very low probability result.
Hammer down on a loaded chamber was the very high probability outcome, and the one the gun was designed to produce in such a circumstance.
Click to expand...


I certainly don't want to come off as being argumentative, I'm simply sharing knowledge/experience...... BUT
if what you suggest is true and uncontrolled fire due to a malfunction or incorrectly fitted stock can be now called "fully automatic fire" , the rcmp firearms lab would have done the same and the rifles would be deemed prohib.
seems pretty simple to me that full auto fun is not to be had hehehe
I guess we could call accidental uncontrolled fire , "FAUX full auto" ? that sounds funner eh?

there was a guy back east months ago that had uncontrolled fire due to malfunction of an SKS trigger group.... he took it to the rcmp claiming the store sold him a full auto. This has been all over this website in recent months. Caused quite a stir in the industry as notices went out to vendors and owners (quebec) to have certain rifles inspected.
over a malfunction LOL
 
Stray03 said:
Chances are the hammer would have rode (ridden?) Forward with the bolt causing a light strike. Soft primers have a chance of going off and if that happens there is a good chance the gun can go boom. Basically what you had there is what people who have no clue about firearms think will let them turn their guns to "full auto". Usually ot results in them having to buy a new sear and sometimes requires a visit to the er for a sewing lesson.
Click to expand...

THIS.

I promise you the only thing that would have happened is the hammer would have rode the bolt home and nine chances out of eight it wouldn't even have the force left to fire the primer of the second round. You'd be left with a live round in the chamber and an uncocked hammer. That's it.
 
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