Funny chamber issue with No1 Mk3

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whimmus

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Hi, all.

I posted a message here a few weeks ago about extraction issues with my old sporterized enfield, the thead is here:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101347

For those too lazy to follow the link, the gist of the thread was pitting inside the chamber that the brass was expanding into and causing extraction problems.

We've since taken steel wool to the chamber to smoooth it out and had limited success due to the depth of some of the pits. We took the gun out shoooting again yesterday and saw the same pits, but also some signs of cracking about 1/16th ahead of the usual bulge at the rear of the spent brass.

On a hunch, we tried a trick we used earlier to defeat the extraction issue... wrapping a thin sheen of vaseline around the base of the shell before loading into the magazine. We were amazed at the results this time!

Not only was the markings from the pits almost nonexistent - in most shells prepared this way, the marks were completely gone - the usual bulge at the rear of the spent brass was far less pronounced. The brass that came from using this preparation was as good as the spent brass from another No4 Mk1 we had up shooting and has a perfect chamber.

My query is... given the spent brass looks to be in much better shape with this 'cheat', is it safe to use in the long run? I'm guessing the vaseline (its not actually 'vaseline', but a similar product sold at a gun shop) is filling the pits and also allowing the brass to expand smoothly in the chamber. The stuff, like vaseline, is non-toxic and only takes a few extra seconds to wipe a bit on each round going into the mag. The gun is otherwise solid and it shoots laser-straight, so we want to keep using it for iron sight shooting.

Comments? Am I nutz? The brass seems to say I aint.

Cheers.
 
STOP GREASING YOUR BRASS!!! And yes I'm yelling. You are creating way to much preasure on your locking lugs and your action will blow!
You have 2 cures available to you, 1, rebarrel the rifle. 2, take the barrel off, cut off the offending part of the chamber then re-chamber. # 1 would be my prefered method as there are a lot of Enfield barrels in good shape, usually attached to rifles but they can be had for cheap in you pay attention.

I took a No 4 a couple of years ago with a shot out throat and rechambered it to 7.62 x 39mm, it shoors great.

Scott
Dycor Special Services.
 
Scott doesn't yell very often, maybe you should reread his post, especially the first line.
 
m39a2 said:
STOP GREASING YOUR BRASS!!! And yes I'm yelling. You are creating way to much preasure on your locking lugs and your action will blow!
Click to expand...

I take it you're yelling because 303's are loud? :)

This very thing was one of the issues discussed by the group at the gravel pit on the weekend. The only reason we'd even bother to get our fingers greasy was that it made such a difference in the brass, but the pressure on the rear-lock bolt was certainly a concern and the sort of thing I was hoping to get advice on, as you've offered.

There are monthly gun shows out this way, so a barrel for a No1 Mk3 is now on the list! If not, the gun will continue its role as a testbed for cleaning old guns, re-blueing practice, wood finishing, etc, etc.

Thanks for the stern advice!
 
Greasing your brass will prevent the internal pressure from locking it against the walls of your chamber, and will, as was pointed out, transfer all the load to the bolt lugs that are most assuredly not designed to take it on a regular basis. Your right, the brass looks better because the grease in incompressible and will not let the brass flow in to the pits and irregularities, however ugly brass is better than picking bits of cocking piece out of your nose. Rebarrel or re-chamber, the choice is yours!
 
Before you junk the barrel.

Greasing the case is very much like playing Russian roulette. So far you have survived the day but....

Before you junk the barrel, give the emery strip on the wooden dowel a try. A few minutes with your hand drill and those pits will be gone. The chamber may be a little oversize and your brass will be toast, but if you are shooting mil spec brass and not reloading, you will be chucking the brass in the bin anyway.

Other than that, barrels are cheap ($30 up) and rebarreling would be a good project for a hobbiest (I do my own barrel changes). You will need a barrel vise and an action wrench, but if you intend to do more restorations, they are a good investment. If you don't want to lay out the cash for specialised tools, then take it to your gunsmith, it has to be done right.
 
X2. This is excellent advice. Try polishing the offending area of the chamber, before you do anything else. The photo you posted suggested raised burrs. Steel wool won't reduce these, a fine abrasive will.
 
"...you're yelling because 303's are loud..." Nope. He's yelling because greasing your ammo is dangerous.
Like englishman_ca says, to change the barrel, you'll need the vise and action wrench plus a set of headspace guages. And possibly a handful of bolt heads.
 
Cocked&Locked said:
Greasing your brass will prevent the internal pressure from locking it against the walls of your chamber, and will, as was pointed out, transfer all the load to the bolt lugs that are most assuredly not designed to take it on a regular basis. Your right, the brass looks better because the grease in incompressible and will not let the brass flow in to the pits and irregularities, however ugly brass is better than picking bits of cocking piece out of your nose. Rebarrel or re-chamber, the choice is yours!
Click to expand...

Truer words were never spoken! You're lucky your rifle hasn't exploded yet.

A sporterized Lee Enfield is a $70 gun. A new barrel will cost at least $30 for a take-off, and another $50 for a smith to change it out - possibly another $30 if you need a new bolt head to headspace the rifle.

In short, scrap your gun and buy another one - cheaper to do so.
 
Lee Enfields were fired twice during proof. One proof round was fired dry, a second was fired oiled. The latter would increase backthrust in order to place additional stress on the action. When 7.62mm conversions were tested on SMLE actions, it was discovered that the oiled 7.62mm proof loads could bend the receiver. The Indians just omitted the oiled proof when testing their new production 7.62mm SMLEs. The oiled proof rounds did not blow up perfectly good rifles.
Obviously a lubricated service round would produce less backthrust than a lubed proof round. Not good practice, something to be avoided, but a couple of rounds with a bit of lube near the head don't exactly turn the rifle into an instant hand grenade.
In the days of cupronickel jacketed bullets, nickel fouling was a major problem. Target shooters in particular would resort to applying moly grease to the bullets. The trick was to apply it only to the bullet, lightly. Parker Hale sold a little bullet lubricator can which had a felt ring into whch the bullet of the loaded round was pushed. IIRC it was called Never-Nickel, or some such. If the application of lube was excessive, there could be two possible complications: if there was too much lube in the throat, pressures could spike; and, of course if it got into the chamber, backthrust would be increased. Grease in the barrel can be very dangerous.
Incidentally, if you fire a rifle in the rain, and the ammunition gets wet, backthrust can be increased. Erratic grouping can result; target shooters try to keep their ammunition and rifle breeches dry. Wet ammunition in a 7.62mm conversion should be avoided.
Incidentally, there is one circumstance in which lubed cases can be beneficial. Fire forming, when the shoulder is being blown foreward, can be more effective if the case does not adhere to the chamber under pressure. This insures that the casehead is tight to the boltface, and the shoulder is formed properly, without excess headspace. Less than full loads may well be used, if this is being done.
 
tiriaq, while I gree that one greased round probably won't grenade a Lee Enfield action, repeated firings will induce metal fatigue, plastic deformation and crack creep propagation into the equation. Continuous use will have a cummulative effect - NOT GOOD.

Suffice it to say, buddy needs to discontinue this rather unsafe practise.
 
You are absolutely correct - not a good practice. I thought some additional background information might be useful.
Now if Andy sees this thread, I can see an experiment being conducted: a series of rounds with greased cases being fired, with headspace being measured at intervals.....
 
Claven2 said:
Suffice it to say, buddy needs to discontinue this rather unsafe practise.
Click to expand...

Claven, that's been achieved after the first post from m39a2/scott. The intent of the post was to get experienced comments on the issue and those first comments were made instantly clear :) -- a great example of how a forum like this works.

At the range, we weren't greasing the entire cartridge.. only the rearmost 3/8" at most, where the pitting was and just ahead of the pressure bulge, where the support from the chamber ends anyway, as I understand it. Pressure was discussed at the time and the practice was ceased after the results until an informed opinion could be had.

We've tried the steel wool and emory cloth around the dowel trick, but both was with very little pressure and did little to remove the pits (but did improve the extraction slightly). I'm reluctant to continue this because it will likely deform the intended chamber shape... this gun is a testbed for trying our hand at fixing up old guns and changing the barrel is a new excercise. I especially like Scott's suggestion to rebarrel for 7.62x39 (we have some other 303s in good shape already).

A lesson was learned and the tone of some of the responses indicates both the potential end effects (bad) and that people on this site give a crap (good).

Thanks all!

Edited: typo
 
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