Getting into reloading. .303 brit + 45-70 govt.

TransAm1991

TransAm1991

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The price of factory ammo of both of these rounds is tremendous, and I love going to the range to fire them off, so you can only imagine the price of range trips, extremely fun, I might add..
Recently, I purchased a Marlin guide gun in 45-70, I should have it next week, but in preparation, I purchased a box of ammo, and to my suprise, it was about $2.10 a round.

For the .303, it's not as bad, I buy the Winchester, has nice brass, it's about $1.50 a round, so the money saved reloading would be huge over time, and I see that.

Now, both of these rounds seem to have very little in common.
What is the most cost effective way to reload these?
I purchased a lee reloader + hornaday bullets for the .303, but I'm not sure which way to go for the 45-70, Lee reloader, aswell?

Also, where is a good place to buy powders, and which type? I tried Cabela's, but the freight charge was 5X the value of the powder. Same for the primers, they were $5, but the shipping was $65.
 
this is just what i was told when i took a class for reloading and that was it costs about .25-.50 cents a round. we had fun doin it. reloaded 2 180 grain spitzer spear tip and a85 grain hallow point.
 
The bigger the case ,the bigger the powder charge = more $
Something like .44 mag (in a lever rifle) would be a good caliber to start reloading
rather than the .45-70.
Throw in casting your own bullets like i do, will save you $,
and you will be able to shoot lots more.
You can start low and move right up in powder charges,
and make a pound of powder last a long time.
It is a very versitile round when it comes to reloading.
Low charges can make use of powders like Trail Boss,
a good powder that goes along way.
Low to moderate charges can make use of no gas checked lead bullets as well.

Do research for reloading the .303
Fireform your cases, then only neck size.
Use, "starting to mid range" loads only, (if you have a sloppy chamber as most LE's do.)
You will get good case life doing this.
 
leadslinger said:
The bigger the case ,the bigger the powder charge = more $
Something like .44 mag (in a lever rifle) would be a good caliber to start reloading
rather than the .45-70.
Throw in casting your own bullets like i do, will save you $,
and you will be able to shoot lots more.
You can start low and move right up in powder charges,
and make a pound of powder last a long time.
It is a very versitile round when it comes to reloading.
Low charges can make use of powders like Trail Boss,
a good powder that goes along way.
Low to moderate charges can make use of no gas checked lead bullets as well.

Do research for reloading the .303
Fireform your cases, then only neck size.
Use, "starting to mid range" loads only, (if you have a sloppy chamber as most LE's do.)
You will get good case life doing this.
Click to expand...
I read alot of the 'Casting' your own bullets for the 45-70, where would you get a mold for something like that? I searched a few websites, but I really can't find much.
 
Depends on what you want the rounds to do (competition accuracy, hunting, just fun shooting, etc), how much you shoot, how much you have to spend, etc.

I would strongly suggest you buy a copy of The ABCs of Reloading. It's an easy read that will give you a good introduction to reloading. It doesn't have much by way of 'recipes' however and you will eventually want to get a good reloading manual put out by any one of the major reloading firms - they're all good.

The simple Lee Loader will turn out perfectly good ammo, as good as any. It's only fault is that its low setup cost (primers, bullets and powder cost the same, of course) is balanced by a slower reload time and the need for more effort. The LL reloading data is generally no more than medium-hot. It's a good way to get started.

If you're firing more than is convenient to produce with the LL, you may have to step up to a regular press and dies. Figure $300 minimum for equipment. (If you were blowing off 500 rounds a weekend in an AR or auto pistol, you might have to consider a progressive, which does everything but shine your shoes will it makes ammo for you - at a hefty cost.)

As to bullets, suggest you start calling the local gun shops and ask around. I just found that an excellent place for cast bullets, The Bullet Barn, has a franchise or dealer here in Calgary. Maybe there's one in Windsor, too. Come to think of it, you have Detroit just to your North. I know exporting brass from the Excited States is difficult, but I've never heard the same about bullets. Maybe somebody else has more info.

One thing to consider about reloading is that not only will you be getting your ammo somewhat cheaper (much cheaper if you ignore the cost of reloading equipment), but you can tailor your ammo to match your rifles' individual preferences.

Good luck!
 
"...Lee reloader, as well?..." No. Lee Loaders neck size only. Lever actions require full length resizing. Even though there's no neck on a .45-70, Lee Loaders aren't for lever actions. Look into a Lee Beginner's kit.
Don't use the scoops either. They can vary the powder charge plus or minus a full grain. Buy a scale.
You should slug the barrel on your Lee-Enfield. Hammer a cast .30 calibre bullet or a suitably sized lead fishing sinker through the barrel using a 1/4" brass rod and a plastic mallet, then measure with a micrometer.
The barrels can vary from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315" the barrel is shot out. Hornady bullets are .310" or .312". They won't shoot well out of a .313" or larger barrel. Other companies use .311" and nobody makes a larger diameter bullet.
Buy components locally.
 
sunray said:
"...Lee reloader, as well?..." No. Lee Loaders neck size only. Lever actions require full length resizing. Even though there's no neck on a .45-70, Lee Loaders aren't for lever actions. Look into a Lee Beginner's kit.
Don't use the scoops either. They can vary the powder charge plus or minus a full grain. Buy a scale.
You should slug the barrel on your Lee-Enfield. Hammer a cast .30 calibre bullet or a suitably sized lead fishing sinker through the barrel using a 1/4" brass rod and a plastic mallet, then measure with a micrometer.
The barrels can vary from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315" the barrel is shot out. Hornady bullets are .310" or .312". They won't shoot well out of a .313" or larger barrel. Other companies use .311" and nobody makes a larger diameter bullet.
Buy components locally.
Click to expand...

As is usual from Sunray, some info is OK, some, not so much. I'll try to qualify:
".310, .311 or.312 bullets won't shoot well out of a .313 or larger barrel" In Reality, you will not know whether they shoot well or not unless you try them. Some 303 users successfully shoot .308 bullets out of their .313" 303's.
"Nobody makes a larger diameter bullet" Steve Redgwell makes a .313 & a .314 bullet for the 303 British. He is in Ontario.
"You can't load for a Lever action without FL resizing" In fact, if using mild loads, you may be able to use that Lee Loader quite successfully, particularly in a straight walled case like the 45-70.
Incidentally, used properly, the scoops can be surprisingly consistent. Nevertheless, a scale is always a good idea.
Regards, Eagleye.
 
Not meaning to hi-jack this fine thread, but yesterday I tried a 3 round group in my 303 Ruger consisting of the 220 gr. Hornady .308 dia. bullet over IMR 4350 powder and it broke the inch.... 0.89" to be exact.
I was suprised, will have to try it again to satisfy curiosity....
 
While I suppose it can be said of any rifle, not all Lee Enfields are created equally. I've seen Lee Enfield rifles that would group MOA, but that is the exception to the rule. If a rifle has excessive headspace, and many Lee Enfields seem to have what might be described as generous headspace, the brass won't last long. This cuts into the savings that handloading should provide unless you shoot on a range which tends to be littered with hundreds of once fired .303 cases courtesy of the Canadian Rangers.

An out of spec bore diameter can make good shooting a frustrating and intimidating exercise. Fortunately loading with cast bullets can solve these complaints to some degree. Cast bullet loads are mild in nature, and the brass is stretched only enough to provide a gas seal. When neck sized, they will last many reloads and need only occasional trimming if that. The cast bullet, unlike its jacketed counterpart, can be sized to match the bore diameter to optimize accuracy. These rounds will provide hours of enjoyable range time due to their mild report and recoil and double nicely as small game loads when backed with fast burning powders like Unique or 2400. When big game loads are required, IMR 4320 seems to produce the best velocities with 150 and 180 gr bullets, although IMR 3031, IMR 4895, or Win 748 aren't far behind. All of these powders are equally useful in both the .303 and the .45/70, simplifying you powder selection.

The .45/70 is surprisingly versatile when handloaded; it is literally a mice to moose cartridge. If it has a short coming, it is the necessity of a short OAL required to cycle in the 95 Marlin. The good news is that MT Chambers 480 gr WFN cycles easily and probably optimizes the rounds potential over a stiff load of appropriate powder like 3031 or 748.

A Lee Loader can produce good ammo, but IMHO there are better solutions. Lee also makes an excellent little C press for something like $40. This press, makes the loading process much faster without requiring a serious financial burden. and with a little imagination can be set up in a way as to take up little room. The key to economy is not necessarily purchase the cheapest tools available, but to purchase good quality tools that can be augmented with other tools to speed up the bottlenecks in your reloading process. The Lee Loader provides nothing with which to build on where as a press is the heart of your system and will be used with every future cartridge you might wish to load for. It can be used not only to resize brass and seat bullets, it can be used to expand case mouths, crimp bullets, prime brass, and pull bullets.

I highly recommend the use of Imperial Sizing Wax as a case lube. This stuff is magic in that it is easily applied, then simply wiped away after resizing. You use so little at a time that it can last for years defying the small size of the can. Imperial Dry Neck Lube, likewise lasts seemingly forever, eases the expander ball's passage through the neck, and doesn't cause particles of powder to stick to the inside of the case mouth as does the use of case lube.

Regardless whether you use a Lee Loader or a press, you need a precise means to weigh powder. The Lee spoons aren't the answer, you need a good quality scale. My experience with the Lee scale when it first appeared was less then positive, and to this day I can't recommend it. While I expected the scale to be more accurate than it's competitors due to the beam only weighs 100 grs rather than the more common 500 grs, I found that the scale was neither precise nor repeatable. In terms of approaching maximum loads with any cartridge, this lack of precision and repeatability could inadvertently result in loading dangerous overloads. I like the RCBS 505 and 10-10 balance beam scales, but they are many good scales to choose from.

Get a good manual to start with, the Lyman provides both jacketed and cast bullet loads, and is an excellent resource to start your handloading library.
 
Boomer,

While much of what you say is quite correct, I would disagree in a couple of places.

First, fixing excess headspace in a No. 4 Lee-Enfield is neither difficult nor expensive, or at least it used to be.

Second, while the Lee Loader scoops are, IMHO, not as accurate as a scale, they are accurate enough, meaning that the loads Lee provides always provide a generous safety margin. True, if you want to start producing hot loads, ones near the very top end, then a scale becomes critical. But for somebody wanting to get into reloading on a minimal budget and is willing to accept the limitations, then the Lee Loader is fine.

WRT Imperial Sizing Wax, I'm with you 100%. That's the greatest gift to reloaders since the compound leverage reloading press.
 
Just to add a bit. With those two calibres you are fortunate in that a powder for one will work well in the other as well, since each cartridge is efficient with medium burning rifle powder.
4895, either variety, is a good bet. With the 45-70 Marlin you can use anywhere from about 35 or 38 grains on the low end, to a top of 55 grains, with a bullet of about 405 grains.
Count on 50 grains or more as shaking the fillings out of your teeth. But, I have a chart showing a whale of a lot of loads for the Marlin 45-70 and it shows 55 grains of H4895 as giving 1861 fps, with a pressure of under 28,000 CUP, with a Remington 405 grain soft point.
 
TransAm1991 said:
Is there any CGN sponsors who ship powders and primers?
Or should I buy local?
Click to expand...

If you buy online, you will have to pay the dangerous goods fees from the shipper. These fees can add up, so often it is best to shop around. I find for the small amounts that you are likely to use, that buying locally is fine.

I have participated in a group buy of powder from Higginson Powder which, I believe is in Hawkesbury. Great service from them. I bought the bulk of my reloading equipment from them as well, when I discovered that they were not asking much more than Lee Precision had the equipment priced at.
 
TransAm1991 said:
Is there any CGN sponsors who ship powders and primers?
Or should I buy local?
Click to expand...

Buy local. Shipping dangerous goods is pricey and not worth it IMHO. Primers are cheap(usually $5/100) and powder is $30-40/lb(usually $35). I would also recommend buying a temperature stable powder as well since they are not as affected by temperature changes (H4350 is a good all around I find...mileage may vary :p ).

For myself I got a Lee 50th anniversary kit to get me started. Just get that, a set of dies for each caliber you want to reload, a case trimmer gauge for each caliber and it's a solid starting point. It will give you a start into proper reloading at a reasonable cost and you can take it from there. For a loading block just drill 1/2" holes in a board. Personally the only reason I see to upgrade from the Lee equipment is if I was doing high volume, was hard on my equipment(some stuff could be built heavier, usually not an issue), or shooting competitions.

Overall I found that setting up cost more than I was expecting with all the small things I ended up buying/stocking up on(mostly components..), but really it's worth it in the end. With the .303 brit I find reloading is about $0.70 each all said and done($0.20 for powder/primer, $0.10 for brass life, $0.30 for bullet). My brass life number I just keep constant for everything unless it's a really cheap brass, in which case I halve it.

Long story short, reloading halves the cost of buying factory and generally yields a better product. Most will say you don't save money, just shoot more for the same cost. It's true.
 
ATOM said:
Boomer,

While much of what you say is quite correct, I would disagree in a couple of places.

First, fixing excess headspace in a No. 4 Lee-Enfield is neither difficult nor expensive, or at least it used to be.

Second, while the Lee Loader scoops are, IMHO, not as accurate as a scale, they are accurate enough, meaning that the loads Lee provides always provide a generous safety margin. True, if you want to start producing hot loads, ones near the very top end, then a scale becomes critical. But for somebody wanting to get into reloading on a minimal budget and is willing to accept the limitations, then the Lee Loader is fine.

WRT Imperial Sizing Wax, I'm with you 100%. That's the greatest gift to reloaders since the compound leverage reloading press.
Click to expand...

How many Lee Enfield shooters do you know give headspace a moment's thought? While the enthusiast will ensure his rifle is correct, I did when I owned mine, the vast majority of Lee Enfield shooters are once a year hunters or occasional plinkers who might handload a couple of boxes a year or just shoot factory ammo, and they don't suspect their rifle might have a problem. And for them it doesn't because they seldom attempt to get more than a single loading from their brass.

Like many, I started loading with a Lee Loader and it wasn't long before I became disatifsfied with it's limitations and purchased an RCBS Jr Press. With respect to the Lee Dippers, there's a couple of things that come to mind. As far as repeatability goes, they are surprisingly good, particularly with ball powder; they are certainly better than the Lee scale. But IIRC, the Lee Loader comes with a single spoon, that doesn't allow much flexibility with any cartridge.

I also believe the spoons can lead a novice to getting over confident and making imprudent loads because he doesn't have a visual index of how much powder 1 gr or .5 grs is. To him, if a spoon measure leveled off is good, then heaping must be better and it's only a pinch more powder, and the measures are made with a safety margin!! Now with that mind set, our hero finds a batch of heavy .312" bullets and heaps up a charge of 748. The Lee spoon that came with the .303 Lee Loader would measure 41.9 grs of fine ball powder level and 43.3 heaped. As it happens 43.6 grs of 748 is a dandy load for a 174 gr bullet, but if a 215 gr bullet was chosen I believe that would exceed the safe limits of the cartridge. In handloading, one size does not fit all.

That said I have a Lee spoon measure kit and use it occasionally when I only have a few rounds to load and it isn't worth adjusting my powder measure or setting up a digital powder dispenser. But I use the spoons to get close to my target weight, then trickle up to it, rather than use the load each represents. I could as easily use a teaspoon.
 
Boomer said:
How many Lee Enfield shooters do you know give headspace a moment's thought? While the enthusiast will ensure his rifle is correct, I did when I owned mine, the vast majority of Lee Enfield shooters are once a year hunters or occasional plinkers who might handload a couple of boxes a year or just shoot factory ammo, and they don't suspect their rifle might have a problem. And for them it doesn't because they seldom attempt to get more than a single loading from their brass.

Like many, I started loading with a Lee Loader and it wasn't long before I became disatifsfied with it's limitations and purchased an RCBS Jr Press. With respect to the Lee Dippers, there's a couple of things that come to mind. As far as repeatability goes, they are surprisingly good, particularly with ball powder; they are certainly better than the Lee scale. But IIRC, the Lee Loader comes with a single spoon, that doesn't allow much flexibility with any cartridge.

I also believe the spoons can lead a novice to getting over confident and making imprudent loads because he doesn't have a visual index of how much powder 1 gr or .5 grs is. To him, if a spoon measure leveled off is good, then heaping must be better and it's only a pinch more powder, and the measures are made with a safety margin!! Now with that mind set, our hero finds a batch of heavy .312" bullets and heaps up a charge of 748. The Lee spoon that came with the .303 Lee Loader would measure 41.9 grs of fine ball powder level and 43.3 heaped. As it happens 43.6 grs of 748 is a dandy load for a 174 gr bullet, but if a 215 gr bullet was chosen I believe that would exceed the safe limits of the cartridge. In handloading, one size does not fit all.

That said I have a Lee spoon measure kit and use it occasionally when I only have a few rounds to load and it isn't worth adjusting my powder measure or setting up a digital powder dispenser. But I use the spoons to get close to my target weight, then trickle up to it, rather than use the load each represents. I could as easily use a teaspoon.
Click to expand...


I'm pretty much at your beginning stage. I've been shooting a Lee-Enfield for the past couple of years and reload using a hand-me-down Lee Loader. I did buy the scoop set already though - I didn't trust the old red scoop. I only load about 60 rounds a year so far, but that'll go up once I get a local range membership. My usual crown land 'range' looks to be an active site for logging again or something, so no more free shooting. I was getting tired of dragging a bench, the guns, and everything down crappy bush roads for an hour of shooting anyways - the local range is a 10 minute drive, much closer.

I have no idea what the headspace is in the rifle - I'm on 3 reloads for some of my brass and they don't look any different than they did after the first firing. I did pick up some o-rings to see if they make any difference for that first firing, but haven't shot with any of them yet.

I hear what you're saying about switching up bullets and loads with the scoops. I usually check a couple of loading manuals first, then pick the scoop/combo of scoops that gives me a reasonable load. I load up and down a bit, but usually at least 1 grain away from max - just in case I'm way off. I'd get closer if I had a nice ball powder, but when I started I picked up Varget. Those pesky sticks are a bit annoying with the scoops. Mostly it's just playing around, since I don't spend a lot of time on testing yet.

OP, I plan on picking up a Handi-Rifle in .45-70 this Fall, so I'm watching this thread with interest.
 
There's a lot of great information here.

I just wanted to point out, unless you start buying some serious bulk components or start casting your own bullets you will not get your rounds under 50 cents. 303 will more than likely 56 cents minimum and I don't know much about the 45-70 so I can't break cost down. However it WILL be a lot more affordable than buying factory ammo.

You can get a Lee Anniversary set for about $130 and Lee dies for about $40 that will get you a high value start toward reloading.

Go on Lee Precision's website and watch the videos, they're really helpful. Start looking on youTube at bullet casting and reloading videos. If you can join a local club or find a local mentor on GunNutz that would give you a huge start towards safe reloading.
 
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