Ginex LR primers - weekend experience in 45-70

wasa

wasa

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Hoping to take my Henry 45-70 hunting this year. Loaded up a bunch of target loads using 300gr Campro bullets, Ginex LR primers, StarLine brass, and three different stick powders: IMR4198, Reloader 7, and Accurate 2015. All loads were from my reloading manuals in the lever 45-70 sections.

Went to my local 100 yard range yesterday (I call it indoor/outdoor. It's enclosed on 5 sides with heaters in each stall). Outdoor temperature was about 2C with off and on rain.

To start, I noted that many of my loads were delayed. Primer goes off, then the powder goes off. Just a fraction of a second, but something you notice after 10 shots or so. Very inconsistent groupings. Shot 5 shot groups, and most were 3 shots "good" with two flyers. Then, with my 8th shot of the IMR4198 I had no "bang" and ejected an empty shell. Yep, the primer went off and the bullet was stuck in the chamber. This lump of powder came out, along with a bunch of stick powder into my action (fun!)

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Some here may remember a post I made many years about using ball powder in my 7.62x54R (Mosin) and using regular Large Rifle Primers. The advice received was to switch to Large Rifle Magnum primers for ball powder, which I have been doing ever since.

I don't think it was that cold (above zero!) and I'm not sure of any reloading manual recommending LRM primers for stick powders (I know Speer recommends LRM primers for ball powders) but I was a tad surprised by this incident.

I've shot my 45-70 many times in the past, but most of the time it has been with Winchester or Federal Large Rifle primers (not magnum). After yesterday's incident, no more Ginex LR primers in my 45-70 with any powder for me.

YMMV
 
Um, if your powder is coming out clumped together like that, I would think that it's not your primers that are the problem? Seems like some moisture got to it at some point, maybe after you loaded the rounds if it went in fine? Do you dry your brass completely before loading?
 
My gues is same as Scotties, damp powder from residual moisture from a brass cleaning ...but... I will also say that slight hang fires in light 45-70 loads are common if you dont use magnum primers. I will use standard primers if i have no magnums available but i try to never let that happen.
 
Too light a load, no pressure building, add more powder and it will resolve your issue of inconsistent ignition.
 
As the others said, looks like moisture in there. I'm using same powder, primers, and brass as you; slight crimp. No issues yet. How much powder are you using for the campro bullets? I'm only reloading tsx but I picked up some campro for plinking.
 
Hitzy said:
Too light a load, no pressure building, add more powder and it will resolve your issue of inconsistent ignition.
Click to expand...

I'm going to agree with this ^^^^ as I've had the exact same problem years ago with a similar cartridge. While straight wall cases are usually a joy to load for, when you're just on the edge of the "enough pressure" to work good, it seems things go wonky in bigger calibers due to the expansion ratio the moment the primer goes off.

What was the actual powder charge and c.o.l.?
 
Scotty454 said:
Um, if your powder is coming out clumped together like that, I would think that it's not your primers that are the problem? Seems like some moisture got to it at some point, maybe after you loaded the rounds if it went in fine? Do you dry your brass completely before loading?
Click to expand...

Yep, this strikes as a powder problem.
 
Clumped powder is probably due to moisture . This is a 17HMR that failed to ignite the powder. Priming material fired and the bullet lodged in the barrel. The powder remained in the case. A crack was found in the case neck / shoulder area ( red highlight ) and is believed to be a factory defect , which allowed moisture ingress over time.
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Scotty454 said:
Um, if your powder is coming out clumped together like that, I would think that it's not your primers that are the problem? Seems like some moisture got to it at some point, maybe after you loaded the rounds if it went in fine? Do you dry your brass completely before loading?
Click to expand...

Because of the coatings on most extruded powders, moisture, in the form of water will not cause that sort of clumping.

When powders break down, that sort of clumping will occur.

From the OP's pic, I would say that powder was fine, but not enough heat was generated by the primer to ignite the charge and it just "blackened" in the case without fully burning.

I've had the same thing happen with 45-70, 577-450 and 43 Mauser loads.

When that happens, it can usually be fixed by changing out primers to something hotter or using a filler between the base of the bullet and the top of the powder charge, to hold it against the flash holes.
 
bearhunter said:
Because of the coatings on most extruded powders, moisture, in the form of water will not cause that sort of clumping.

When powders break down, that sort of clumping will occur.

From the OP's pic, I would say that powder was fine, but not enough heat was generated by the primer to ignite the charge and it just "blackened" in the case without fully burning.

I've had the same thing happen with 45-70, 577-450 and 43 Mauser loads.

When that happens, it can usually be fixed by changing out primers to something hotter or using a filler between the base of the bullet and the top of the powder charge, to hold it against the flash holes.
Click to expand...

... and/or using a heavier crimp, especially in the 45-70, the bottle necked 43 Mauser is less of a problem.
 
I've had the same thing using H-4198 years ago, not the hangfires, but a shot where the powder was sort of melted into a weird yellowish glob. Not light loads either. Cold weather though. I switched to magnum primers and have never had it since.

The only time I've ever experienced a delay between the trigger pull and the bang in a .45-70 was back when I was shooting light loads ( 40gr ) of IMR-3031 with 400gr cast bullets. A little more powder fixed that right up.

Chris.
 
It's not moisture. I dry tumble in walnut media. There is no leak in my reloading room :) Ammo is stored in an ammo box with O-ring seal. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die to crimp my 45-70 rounds. I have reloaded hundreds of 45-70 loads using 300gr and 405gr Campro projectiles and have never had a problem before the weekend. Reviewing my notes, the only change was the Ginex primers (vs Federal or Winchester).

Maybe the batch of Ginex LR primers I got were weak? IDK. Just thought I'd share.

I have not had a problem with Ginex SR primers in my 223 loaded with BLC2 or W748. I have not had a problem with Ginex LR primers in my 308 loaded with BLC2.
 
wasa said:
It's not moisture. I dry tumble in walnut media. There is no leak in my reloading room :) Ammo is stored in an ammo box with O-ring seal. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die to crimp my 45-70 rounds. I have reloaded hundreds of 45-70 loads using 300gr and 405gr Campro projectiles and have never had a problem before the weekend. Reviewing my notes, the only change was the Ginex primers (vs Federal or Winchester).

Maybe the batch of Ginex LR primers I got were weak? IDK. Just thought I'd share.

I have not had a problem with Ginex SR primers in my 223 loaded with BLC2 or W748. I have not had a problem with Ginex LR primers in my 308 loaded with BLC2.
Click to expand...

I asked previously, what were the actual powder charges/loads you used?
 
Currently traveling for work so typing this from my hotel room. Sorry - won't be able to get that data until I return home later this week.

I note that Speer, Nosler, and Hodgdon list IMR4198 for 300gr bullets in Lever 45-70. Nosler shows Winchester LRP while Speer & Hodgdon show CCI 200 primers (LR). Interesting to note that Speer lists min=39 & max=43 gr, Nosler has 47.5 to 51.5 while Hodgdon has min = 53.7gr and max=57.2gr. A huge difference. I suspect I loaded closer to Speer vs Hodgdon (target loads, Campro projectiles). Max charge is different by 14gr.

https://reloadingdata.speer.com/down...ctions_300.pdf
https://www.nosler.com/45-70-govt-strong-actions-only
 
Partial, I've had issues with this even when using a heavier crimp. Not a failure to ignite properly but radically inconsistent velocities, along with poor accuracy.
 
B said:
Black powder is water soluble, smokeless is not. The clumping is from the primer as mentioned.
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B. read the OP's post. He was using H4198, not black powder.

I've never seen grains of black powder that were extruded.

If that had been black powder it would likely have been reduced to mush, if water moisture were present.
 
One thing to keep in mind with the Ginex primers, because they are slightly larger in diameter than North American primers, you have to be mindful that they are fully seated to ensure reliable ignition.
 
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