Good milling machines and metal lathes
- Thread starter skirsons
- Start date
Schaublin 150 lathe.
Deckel FP3 Milling machine.
Won the lottery lately?
Shaub 150's are running around $50k used, a fully loaded Deckel will spend a good deal of your grandkids inheritance. Not including any CNC options.
But you sure won't be limited by the machines!
>edit> Well, not much, anyway....
Every machine will limit you in one way or another.
Part of the game is knowing how to work around those limitations.
Pretty much any 13 x 40 lathe, and any Bridgeport style milling machine will do all the things required, if you learn how to use them. Top speeds are good, but a slow bottom speed is more important, for threading and chambering type work. A bore large enough to get a barrel, or possibly a complete action throughis nice.
Look at the specs of the Grizzly "Gunsmith" Lathes. Should give you a good idea of what works for some folks.
The Bridgeport style mill is not the last word in rigidity, but will do what has to be done, and is a pretty versatile piece of kit, and affordable. Tooling will cost you more than the milling machine, eventually, factor it into the budget.
Smaller machines will do a lot of good work, cost less, too. Depends on a bunch of other stuff.
How much money you want to spend? New or used? Space constraints?
Cheers
Trev
Deckel FP3 Milling machine.
Won the lottery lately?
Shaub 150's are running around $50k used, a fully loaded Deckel will spend a good deal of your grandkids inheritance. Not including any CNC options.
But you sure won't be limited by the machines!
>edit> Well, not much, anyway....
Every machine will limit you in one way or another.
Part of the game is knowing how to work around those limitations.
Pretty much any 13 x 40 lathe, and any Bridgeport style milling machine will do all the things required, if you learn how to use them. Top speeds are good, but a slow bottom speed is more important, for threading and chambering type work. A bore large enough to get a barrel, or possibly a complete action throughis nice.
Look at the specs of the Grizzly "Gunsmith" Lathes. Should give you a good idea of what works for some folks.
The Bridgeport style mill is not the last word in rigidity, but will do what has to be done, and is a pretty versatile piece of kit, and affordable. Tooling will cost you more than the milling machine, eventually, factor it into the budget.
Smaller machines will do a lot of good work, cost less, too. Depends on a bunch of other stuff.
How much money you want to spend? New or used? Space constraints?
Cheers
Trev
Last edited:
For machine tools the sky is the limit. What sort of budget do you have to work with? Also what sort of projects do you have in mind to do? I know you said no limits so that would imply that you're after a 12x36 or larger lathe so you can do it all up to and including drilling barrels for rifles.
Also I have to wonder about how much metal machining experience you have since once you've done a fair number of things on the lathe and milling machine you'd already have the knowledge needed to answer your own question. But since the question itself suggests you're new to machine work I'll remind you that it's not just the machine itself but the various support tooling that you'll need to properly utilize the machines.
Which brings us back to the original question. What sort of budget for setting up a shop do you have in mind for machine tools? Along with the lathe and mill I'd suggest that you'll also want a goodly size drill press and a metal cutting bandsaw so figure that as part of the expense as well if you don't have them already.
Also I have to wonder about how much metal machining experience you have since once you've done a fair number of things on the lathe and milling machine you'd already have the knowledge needed to answer your own question. But since the question itself suggests you're new to machine work I'll remind you that it's not just the machine itself but the various support tooling that you'll need to properly utilize the machines.
Which brings us back to the original question. What sort of budget for setting up a shop do you have in mind for machine tools? Along with the lathe and mill I'd suggest that you'll also want a goodly size drill press and a metal cutting bandsaw so figure that as part of the expense as well if you don't have them already.
Ayup! and a surface grinder, a Tool and Cutter grinder, and optical comparator, another lathe (to make tools or parts you need for the project that's all dialed in on the other lathe!BTDT!) and about a thousand other things you need to not be limited by the machines.
About the only real truism in machine tools is that the one you have in the shop will work better for you than a picture of a perfect one in a catalog will. Buy a lathe, learn to use it. and when you cannot live without a different one, move on to it. If you wait for the perfect machine to show up at the perfect price, you'll never own one.
Cheers
Trev
About the only real truism in machine tools is that the one you have in the shop will work better for you than a picture of a perfect one in a catalog will. Buy a lathe, learn to use it. and when you cannot live without a different one, move on to it. If you wait for the perfect machine to show up at the perfect price, you'll never own one.
Cheers
Trev
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
I equipped my shop with a 10K southbend in used/ex-school condition (rough) for $600, and a Busy Bee/Craftex B096 Mill for $1000. Both came with assorted tooling, and such.
It's enough to do most of what I'd like to do, though without the perfect precision I may prefer.
*shrug*
What tolerances are you happy with holding?
I'd like to have the $$ to go toss on a bench-top CNC mill too while I'm at it...alas, that ain't gonna happen.
I had a Sherline 4400 Lathe/Mill combo. Worked well, but underpowered for any serious applications. Good for hobby stuff...new firing pin, that sort of thing.
Buy the best tools you can afford when you start out, as you'll have them for a while.
I bought my sherline at a "steal" but by the time I got all the accessories for it, I was up to the $$$ of a full-sized mill. So, I sold it and got the big'un.
YMMV, but I've learned my lesson. I'll buy big or save my money from now on.
NS
It's enough to do most of what I'd like to do, though without the perfect precision I may prefer.
*shrug*
What tolerances are you happy with holding?
I'd like to have the $$ to go toss on a bench-top CNC mill too while I'm at it...alas, that ain't gonna happen.
I had a Sherline 4400 Lathe/Mill combo. Worked well, but underpowered for any serious applications. Good for hobby stuff...new firing pin, that sort of thing.
Buy the best tools you can afford when you start out, as you'll have them for a while.
I bought my sherline at a "steal" but by the time I got all the accessories for it, I was up to the $$$ of a full-sized mill. So, I sold it and got the big'un.
YMMV, but I've learned my lesson. I'll buy big or save my money from now on.
NS
NavyShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- XMU Local .303
HH,
True that.
I've probably got more money in tooling than I do in my two machines combined.
NS
True that.
I've probably got more money in tooling than I do in my two machines combined.
NS
re: Milling Machine
I purchased a Model 935VS-1 9" X 35" milling machine from Modern Tool in Calgary. It's one they assemble specially for small and home shops. It's actually a #1 mill with a #3 head. Small enough to go under a 7 foot ceiling and has all the features of a full sized Bridgeport, at about $2K less. Much better than mill drills and Busy Bee offerings. I'm very pleased with mine. Maybe you can find a industrial supply in your area that offers something similar?
http://www.moderntool.com/new pics/935 mill.jpg
http://www.moderntool.com/milling new.htm
Good shopping
I purchased a Model 935VS-1 9" X 35" milling machine from Modern Tool in Calgary. It's one they assemble specially for small and home shops. It's actually a #1 mill with a #3 head. Small enough to go under a 7 foot ceiling and has all the features of a full sized Bridgeport, at about $2K less. Much better than mill drills and Busy Bee offerings. I'm very pleased with mine. Maybe you can find a industrial supply in your area that offers something similar?
http://www.moderntool.com/new pics/935 mill.jpg
http://www.moderntool.com/milling new.htm
Good shopping
monkeycanada
Regular
Skirsons you live in a great part of the country for buying used industrial machine tools.
Good lathe: Harrison M300 (used by British Army in mobile repair shops).
Good Mill: Bridgeport Series I (Bridgeport shipped over 350,000 of these machines over the past 60-plus years).
Good lathe: Harrison M300 (used by British Army in mobile repair shops).
Good Mill: Bridgeport Series I (Bridgeport shipped over 350,000 of these machines over the past 60-plus years).
I know of two first class 'smiths who use Grip brand lathes from KBC.
I have a Canadian made Standard Modern 1340 lathe, and an older Taiwanese medium sized mill/drill.
These can handle most any job that has come along.
The question of whether it is better to buy new imports or used brand name machines goes around and around.
There was a House of Tools 14x40 (import) listed in the EE recently for $2500, or so, in Alberta. It would definitely worth looking at.
I have a Canadian made Standard Modern 1340 lathe, and an older Taiwanese medium sized mill/drill.
These can handle most any job that has come along.
The question of whether it is better to buy new imports or used brand name machines goes around and around.
There was a House of Tools 14x40 (import) listed in the EE recently for $2500, or so, in Alberta. It would definitely worth looking at.
As for the budget I will always be looking for a deal! I do not want to bore my own barrels but it would be nice to be able to turn them down etc.
I am just trying to build my priorities and make sure I don't invest in a machine that is not going to do something critical (which I'm sure I will find out after I buy it!).
Thanks for the help so far!
-Steve
I am just trying to build my priorities and make sure I don't invest in a machine that is not going to do something critical (which I'm sure I will find out after I buy it!).
Thanks for the help so far!
-Steve
Run, don't walk, away from any of the Chinese Combo machines! Really!
They are the combined essence of all the things that would limit you in your endeavors.
Most of them don't turn threads at all. The ones that do, generally need the reflexes of a Nintendo kid, to get reasonable results. Not a good thing, threading up to a shoulder!
The milling set-ups on the best of them are best described by the term "limited".
If you are an experienced metalworker, and have a great imagination, you can accomplish a lot with one, but if you are trying to learn as you go, or you want a machine that will do all things for you, you are just as likely to give it all up in disgust and frustration, and take up a new hobby. Seen it happen.
Buy a lathe. Buy a milling machine. Buy tooling. Learn what you need and want out of your machines, and upgrade if you gotta.
Harrisson, and Colchester, are two good names. The Standard Modern, mentioned in a post above, is a good machine, if a little lightweight for it's size. Still a great Gunsmithing lathe. Gunsmithing generally does not call for a 8 hour shift of 1/4 inch per pass cuts!
The South Bend Heavy 10 is a great older style lathe, if you can find one in decent shape.
You really want at least a 1 3/8" spindle bore. That is the minimum size that will accept a 5C collet. Very useful feature!
Then there are all the Swiss, German, and other Euro machines out there... Plus some of the Chinese and Taiwanese made new imports. And that's just in the sizes that will fit in a pick-up truck. If you want to go bigger, then the choices go up fast.
Start watching Craigslist in your general area. Lots of decent looking machines showing up there. Recessions are good times for machine tool nuts! Google is yer friend when you want to know what's what about a machine.
The larger new Chinese machines (bigger than you can pick up by yourself) can be worth looking at. New, with some (limited) parts support, may be a comfort for you, or it may not. I look for the general condition, and don't worry much about parts or warranty, but I'm a cheapskate, too, and am willing to build the parts I may need. YMMV. Consider looking Stateside, too.
Cheers
Trev
They are the combined essence of all the things that would limit you in your endeavors.
Most of them don't turn threads at all. The ones that do, generally need the reflexes of a Nintendo kid, to get reasonable results. Not a good thing, threading up to a shoulder!
The milling set-ups on the best of them are best described by the term "limited".
If you are an experienced metalworker, and have a great imagination, you can accomplish a lot with one, but if you are trying to learn as you go, or you want a machine that will do all things for you, you are just as likely to give it all up in disgust and frustration, and take up a new hobby. Seen it happen.
Buy a lathe. Buy a milling machine. Buy tooling. Learn what you need and want out of your machines, and upgrade if you gotta.
Harrisson, and Colchester, are two good names. The Standard Modern, mentioned in a post above, is a good machine, if a little lightweight for it's size. Still a great Gunsmithing lathe. Gunsmithing generally does not call for a 8 hour shift of 1/4 inch per pass cuts!
The South Bend Heavy 10 is a great older style lathe, if you can find one in decent shape.
You really want at least a 1 3/8" spindle bore. That is the minimum size that will accept a 5C collet. Very useful feature!
Then there are all the Swiss, German, and other Euro machines out there... Plus some of the Chinese and Taiwanese made new imports. And that's just in the sizes that will fit in a pick-up truck. If you want to go bigger, then the choices go up fast.
Start watching Craigslist in your general area. Lots of decent looking machines showing up there. Recessions are good times for machine tool nuts! Google is yer friend when you want to know what's what about a machine.
The larger new Chinese machines (bigger than you can pick up by yourself) can be worth looking at. New, with some (limited) parts support, may be a comfort for you, or it may not. I look for the general condition, and don't worry much about parts or warranty, but I'm a cheapskate, too, and am willing to build the parts I may need. YMMV. Consider looking Stateside, too.
Cheers
Trev
I have a lot of time on the older South Bends, and like them very much. A sound SB Heavy 10 is an excellent 'smithing lathe. Years ago I had a 16" South Bend with 54" centres. Even though it was made in the '30s, it was a fine machine.
As trevj mentionned you aren't going to be spending 8 hours a day making 1/4" cuts. The SM lathe is about 3/4 ton. Heavy duty lathes of the same size range can weigh double that.
Sometimes a larger machine is less expensive than a smaller one. The size discourges many buyers. If they can't shift it with a couple of friends and a utility trailer, they lose interest, particularly when it has to go into a basement shop.
As trevj mentionned you aren't going to be spending 8 hours a day making 1/4" cuts. The SM lathe is about 3/4 ton. Heavy duty lathes of the same size range can weigh double that.
Sometimes a larger machine is less expensive than a smaller one. The size discourges many buyers. If they can't shift it with a couple of friends and a utility trailer, they lose interest, particularly when it has to go into a basement shop.
monkeycanada
Regular
Skirsons I had one of Busy Bee's 3 in 1 machines I used in a mobile repair shop up North. They are not bad machines as such but can get very frustrating switching them back and forth from mill to lathe and the reverse. They are a compromise machine and only work well if you are very, very limited on space. I would buy your lathe first and get the best and biggest you can afford. The mill can come later, in fact lots of people only have a lathe (piller drill, bench grinder, bench/vice and hand tool) and do great work.
I own a Harrison 13" lathe, and have owned a couple of Colchesters. They are decent lathes, not what I would call good. Colchesters have been made in Taiwan for over 20 years, and Harrisons are now made in China.
Southbend lathes are about to re-enter the market, made in Taiwan.
Standard Moderns are made in Canada, their 13-40 lathe is very nice, much bigger than the 13-34 model.
Southbend lathes are about to re-enter the market, made in Taiwan.
Standard Moderns are made in Canada, their 13-40 lathe is very nice, much bigger than the 13-34 model.
Can of worms, sky's the limit. 13x40 Standard Modern series 2000larthes are hard to find but work well; especially with taper attachment and other goodies. Bison chucks are available for them and there's a company that will CNC them for you if you want. A Bridgeport or similar mill is good, but if you can find a Bi-###ual, Horiz. and vert machine sometimes called a knucklehead, they are good, and can be adapted to a Bridgeport style head with quill feed. Allways get a mill where the table goes-up and down, not the head. There are lots of crappy, cheap off-shore jobs that are cheap to ship but will only bring you grief. Table feed helps but is not entirely necessary. I repeat, Table must go-up and down. Machines with heads that unlock and come down are no good for hogging or cutting with any accuracy. A 30-plus year-old North american machine tool is better than anything new from asia. I have used some offshore brands like "First" that were excellent vertical mills though, but they are too pricey. Older Euro machines like TOS are good too.
