Grouping Analysis Help?

Travis Bickle

Travis Bickle

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Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Hey all,

I'm no "precision shooter" first off. I don't compete or anything except with my own level of profficiency lol

I have a question and I figured if anyone could help me out they're hanging out in this section.

I have a similar tendency regardless of which rifle I'm shooting, to shoot groups which are very tight except for one shot which seems to be away from the main group. I've been told by guys much better than me that I am a great shot though I don't think I'm anything special but I'm no noob.

The wierd thing is if I fire 4 shots, three will be tight and the fourth will be anywhere from 2-3" away or up to 5-6" if I'm shooting milsurps (mosins mainly) and nowhere near my POA.

I always shoot iron sights.

My only theory is:

I have a tendency to shoot a 5 round group most times then take a long walk to my target, assess, mark/patch, walk back etc. I do not shoot highly accurate expensive rifles, is it possible that it is the first shot from my groups firing from a now cooled barrel which is not consistant with the following 3 or 4?

Any experience with this guys?
 
Sometimes the first cold shot isn't where your group is and sometimes it is the last sometimes nobody knows.

Shoot some 10 shot groups, letting the rifle cool every single shot, it takes time but will tell a story.

When doing test loads I measure the whole group and then remove the worst shot and measure again, it will help to show a pattern or potential in load/shooter.I record all this information on an excel sheet , quite interesting when you can read the results that are easily comparable on a chart.
 
You could get a spotting scope and spot every shot. Or, have a colleague spot your shots as you shoot a group and then get the feedback after the group is finished.
You could also try shooting groups of 5-10 shots and see the result - again with a spotting scope or have a colleague spot.
Without knowing when the errant shots are made you don't know what to address. Or even if it's you !
 
Kelly Timoffee said:
Sometimes the first cold shot isn't where your group is and sometimes it is the last sometimes nobody knows.

Shoot some 10 shot groups, letting the rifle cool every single shot, it takes time but will tell a story.

When doing test loads I measure the whole group and then remove the worst shot and measure again, it will help to show a pattern or potential in load/shooter.I record all this information on an excel sheet , quite interesting when you can read the results that are easily comparable on a chart.
Click to expand...

I'm wondering that myself, the only way to know for sure I guess would be to actually shoot 1 round and take the walk to the target on the first and see if it is the out lier.

I'll try and take a 1 minute break or so between shots with a 10 round group as well.

Might take a while but at least I'll get some more info to work with.
 
dryfire said:
You could get a spotting scope and spot every shot. Or, have a colleague spot your shots as you shoot a group and then get the feedback after the group is finished.
You could also try shooting groups of 5-10 shots and see the result - again with a spotting scope or have a colleague spot.
Without knowing when the errant shots are made you don't know what to address. Or even if it's you !
Click to expand...

lol I know that's what's got me wondering :(

But my group in general will usualy be very good, even with crusty milsurps and surplus ammo...except for that one little guy always off on his own.
 
You can't hit what you can't see...
You can't evaluate what you don't know...
The spotting friend, or scope to know when that "flyer" occurs is the best advice so far.
 
What distance are you shooting at?

Are you using a target that gives you a nice sight picture? (e.g. a nice big round or square black aiming mark, on a piece of paper that is at least two to three times as big as the aiming mark? Ideally the aiming mark should be at least 6" in size at 100y, at least 12" in size at 200y, etc, but bigger is better)

How big are the groups that you are shooting (the core, and the core plus the flyer(s))?

When shooting milsurp rifles plus milsurp ammo, it is not unreasonable to see large(ish) groups, and/or an occasional flyer. Though sometimes you can find really golden combinations, I would say that any milsurp rifle and ammo combination that shoots most of its shots into 3 MOA with occasional slyers out to 5 MOA is doing its job. What you are seeing may well be coming from your equipment (perhaps the ammo, perhaps a rifle heating up, etc).

If you have the opportunity to shoot a highly accurate expensive rifle, take it - it is a really good way to assess your abilities as a shooter. If you shoot nice tight groups with no flyers, then you have established a certain level of accuracy that you can expect from yourself as a shooter, so that you can then know what to blame (and what not to blame) on a milsurp rifle+ammo combo.
 
rnbra-shooter said:
What distance are you shooting at?

Are you using a target that gives you a nice sight picture? (e.g. a nice big round or square black aiming mark, on a piece of paper that is at least two to three times as big as the aiming mark? Ideally the aiming mark should be at least 6" in size at 100y, at least 12" in size at 200y, etc, but bigger is better)

How big are the groups that you are shooting (the core, and the core plus the flyer(s))?

When shooting milsurp rifles plus milsurp ammo, it is not unreasonable to see large(ish) groups, and/or an occasional flyer. Though sometimes you can find really golden combinations, I would say that any milsurp rifle and ammo combination that shoots most of its shots into 3 MOA with occasional slyers out to 5 MOA is doing its job. What you are seeing may well be coming from your equipment (perhaps the ammo, perhaps a rifle heating up, etc).

If you have the opportunity to shoot a highly accurate expensive rifle, take it - it is a really good way to assess your abilities as a shooter. If you shoot nice tight groups with no flyers, then you have established a certain level of accuracy that you can expect from yourself as a shooter, so that you can then know what to blame (and what not to blame) on a milsurp rifle+ammo combo.
Click to expand...


That's true actually, I have shot a Stevens 200 scoped and had very nice tight 5 round groups with no flyers, until the barrel heats up anyway and they all spread out equally lol

I hate to skirt the blame but I'm starting to think it might be the barrel heating up and then cooling down in my milsurps causing the flyer.

I'm going to try and track down a spotting scope for a days use and then also try some 10 round groups, if I get all 9 nice and tight and have the one still out there, then I pretty much solved the riddle here.

Thanks for all the info guys!
 
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