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glockgrouptherapy

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k so i finally got my norc 305 out and ran some 150fmj remington. and groups were at about 4moa. it got me on paper for sighting in then my groups started to disapear... gas plug had come loose. figured that had something to do with it and it did. did it back up and shot again.
now i turn to my hand loads. several different combos but i was using nosler 168 & 175 bthp, hornady 155sst under varget and 4064 between 38-40grs (no chrono) seated to about 2.750. ***i dont have a crimp***. used federal and remington primers.

no group was smaller tham 3 moa. some grouped 2 shots together then throw the next two 2inchs way in a nice group then the last shot was some where else. I never expected a sub moa gun but a 4 moa gun?
I was prone I had a sand bag. I know I can shoot cuz I had my custom AR out and was ringing gongs at 100-200 ydz and a 8 inch rock at 300. so i firmly believe its the rifle.

i checked everything online and nothing seemed out of whack. op rod guide is able to cant slightly but i tried pushing it side to side and checked the op rod and it doesnt appear to impead it at all. I wrenched that dam plug in pretty good so it doesnt come loose.

Im new to this rifle and i cant figure it out. hoping you gurus know.

thanks guys and gals.
 
"...no group was smaller tham 3 moa..." Typical with mixed ammo. Especially with below minimum powder charges. Way under minimum for all those bullets with either powder.
You have to pick a primer(doesn't really make much difference which one), a bullet(use the 168's. 175's are for distances past 600.) and a powder(partial to 4064 myself, but only because it works extremely well out of my '03A4) and work up a load. Max OAL for 168's and 175's is 2.800". 2.775" for a 155. Mind you, 2.750" isn't horrible. No crimp is required. Remember that an M305 isn't a custom built AR too.
"...was prone..." A bench with your sand bags is more comfortable.
 
those powder charges were middle of the spectrum from the manuals from hornady and seirra if i remember right. what charges are you using?
the primer selection is due to lack of federals which is what i mainly use.
never compared my ar to the 305 lol. i was just saying that im not a sh*t shot.
 
Try a ladder test using one bullet type and powder. I have found that these rifles can be very picky when one is trying for groups.
 
Ardent said:
Well, you're doing it right. The norm is guys pick the best groups their rifle has ever shot and describe that as what their rifle is capable of, you're talking true averages, which are dead on average M305 performance. They're definitely battle rifles not precision rifles.
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100% agree
Even with all the basic clinic tweaks , most of these rifles are not consistant tack drivers.
I've built some very accurate M14 type rifles over the years and the majority of the "real and consistant" accurate ones cost much much more than the rifle itself :D

Humour me and go pick up a box of factory federal 150gr powershok , blue box. Shoot 4, 5rnd groups and see what the results are.
 
Gobc said:
What your saying that all those internet posts with peoples stock M1As shooting moa or less aren't real? Say it isn't so!
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I wouldn't say that at all.
I've seen some mostly unmodified M1A standards and M14s/M305 rifles shoot surprisingly well with factory and reloaded ammo. But I think we all know that a consistant sub moa stock rifle is a rare gem ;) they do exist though
 
Gobc said:
What your saying that all those internet posts with peoples stock M1As shooting moa or less aren't real? Say it isn't so!
Click to expand...

Hey I have a Nork but as the saying goes... If it sounds too good to be true...

All balony aside, a real good 1 out of 50 Nork might compare to this.
Fulton Armory M14 Legend Rifle *
Part #: FA-M14-LEDG
Price: $2,599.95
Fulton Armory Precision Guarantee: Under 2.5 MOA (With Hornady® Match™ Ammunition)


Consider this. It's the top of the line rifle from Fulton Armory. What are the odds that a 400 dollar rifle will do the same thing?

If you judiciously spend about $1500 on a Nork, you could probably get close... and to be fair, that's how it should be.

Fulton Armory M14 Peerless NM Service Rifle *
Part #: FA-M14-PNM
Price: $3,599.95
This is the current “state-of-the-art”. Fulton Armory threaded M14 rear lug receiver glass bedded to a Heavy Contour Walnut stock for rigidity and stability, the finest performance parts on the planet, every component hand selected, flawless glass bedding, and guaranteed under 1 MOA. After over 25 years of experience, this is the most accurate M14 we know how to build. A McMillan Fiberglass Stock is offered as option.

•Receiver: Fulton Armory (Meets All USGI Material, Heat Treat & Geometry Specifications)
â—¦Rear Lug: Threaded, With Steel Locking Bolt
•Barrel: Fulton Armory, 22" 1x10, Medium Contour, Stainless Steel, National Match Quality
•Parts: GI & True Mil Spec Parts Throughout, FA Forged Gen II Bolt & Op Rod
Hand-Milled Trigger Guard Latch
NM/2A 1/2 x 1/2 Match Rear Sight (.0595 Aperture)

National Match Upgrades:
Sadlak NM TiN Gas Piston
Sadlak NM Op Rod Spring Guide
NM Front Sling Swivel
NM Front Sight (.062)
NM Ferrule With Modified Front End
NM Gas Cylinder with Welded & Modified Front Band
Modified Trigger
Modified Handguard


Here's a link http://www.fulton-armory.com/fultonarmoryusriflecal762mmm14-1-1-1-2-2-1.aspx
 
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I'm not saying M14s in general (norc or otherwise) can't be set up to be very accurate, i'm saying that people in general exaggerate how accurate their abilities and rifles are.
 
Gobc said:
I'm not saying M14s in general (norc or otherwise) can't be set up to be very accurate, i'm saying that people in general exaggerate how accurate their abilities and rifles are.
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I've seen guys post here about submoa or just MOA and actually witnessed them behind the trigger proving it..... And still get flamed for posting about it.... So really, anyone can say anything on the internet.... What do I care.
Everyone's M14 could be submoa.... Doesn't change my life any.... Why worry about it I say :D
 
Gobc said:
I'm thinking about building/buying a premium M14. So I do worry about it! Lots of money involve to get it to shoot as well as a $700 remmington!
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I do hear ya there man :D
I'm not boasting when I say this but here's my perspective after a few years of building a great many 1000.00 to 8000.00 M14 type builds.
The barrel, gas system , trigger, sights/optics mount is where I would recommend spending that money.
Stock, bolt and receiver are not so essential
Ie: an LRB receiver over a in spec norinco receiver.... Is not necessarily going to give a more accurate rifle.
That's my take anyways.
A good pipe and nice tight parts fitment all around. A nice gas system with good slow piston drop, and a finely tuned match trigger ;) then comes load developement
 
If a guy wants a premium rifle, there is nothing wrong with using a Norinko receiver as the base. I would have it annealed so it can be polished and deburred and then rehardened and parkerized or even blued if you like. Some guys even have some of the original markings removed and laser engraving some other nomenclature on them. I've seen some of these that look as good or better than some of the official premium brands. You just need to find a heat treat facility near you and many heat treat guys do black oxide which is really gun blue.

Since the Norks are actually forged the integrity of the steel is often said to be better than a springfield.
 
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Yup... 4 minutes is what I got too. I shot it for the first time this past weekend with a 3-9 scope.

I have a brand new M305 from Marstar and it's nice enough all things considered, but it aint no target rifle and I didn't exactly expect it to be. I tried a few hand loads and the 175 SMK may have been a bit tighter but the point of impact was almost off the page so it was hard to verify. Like most M305 projects it will be an ongoing process of tweaking and testing. Hopefully in time it will get under 2.5 MOA without replacing half the rifle.
 
hah... and you can add other semi's in there and alot of factory bolts.. people BS alot !! otherwise, i could buy a stock rem 700 or savage and win a competition hah




Gobc said:
What your saying that all those internet posts with peoples stock M1As shooting moa or less aren't real? Say it isn't so!
Click to expand...
 
Gobc said:
I'm thinking about building/buying a premium M14. So I do worry about it! Lots of money involve to get it to shoot as well as a $700 remmington!
Click to expand...
Don't worry,
As I to have heard certain people say that there bolt action rifle was shooting moa groups at 100 yards. Only to realize after wards that it was only 60 yards that they were shooting at. Then bug me when I post a one and a quarter moa at 100 meters at my local range.
This web site is like a women's clothing store. You got to look past all the bling bling and snake oil sales to find out what the real truth is.
 
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