Gun angle while changing mags?

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kent23

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At the Ontario Provincials this year someone told me that I should always point the gun into the birms (not over them) while changing mags and that some clubs will DQ you for this. :eek:

I just got my latest copy of USPSA's mag "Front Sight" and there are lots of pictures, including the cover photo, showing people angling their pistol upward to facilitate the mag change. This is also how I was taught.

Any thoughts?:confused:
 
Kent23,

My $0.02...

Doing the mag changes with gun pointed over the berms is a North American bad habit. You would probably see it alot less in foreign countries. And it is a very bad habit.
Think of it this way... You complete a mag change by seating your mag in the gun... gun goes bang!... Where did your round just go? Could mean the difference between shooting the rest of the day or going home... at least you would have an arguement as a competitor if your round hit the berm safely down-range.
 
Not like I'm an expert, but I rotate the grip 90 degrees to the left while the muzzle is straight down range. The gun is brought back to a high sternum level. From there it's just re-establish your grip and punch back out towards the next target.
 
as long as the gun doesn't point behind you you're fine. the the 90 degree rule goes for up and down as well as left and right. so you can point it straight up.

but I rotate mine sideways. so the barrel is facing downrange but the mag well is facing left.
 
well I've watched tons of Euro videos of IPSC matches, and they point over the berm too, as do the Asian ones I've seen. Like Scott said, it's a 90 degree rule, which includes reloads.
 
kent23 said:
At the Ontario Provincials this year someone told me that I should always point the gun into the birms (not over them) while changing mags and that some clubs will DQ you for this. :eek:
Click to expand...
If it is a IPSC sanctioned match they can't DQ you for this. Sure would be a lot of DQs! Doesn't take much to angle it over the berm.

Why would a reload be any different than going through a door with the gun pointed up and out of the way? As long as your finger is out of the trigger guard it is perfectly safe.


Fudd
 
I think it's France or Germany that has the "no pointing over the berm" LAW. Not rule, LAW. Just like our 10 m from steel LAW gives us a 10 m DQ where the rest of the IPSC world uses the 7m line for DQ.

Just do your mag changes the regular way.
 
This all stems from Eric Grauffel and his fans. Yes, there are local match rules in some countries in Europe where if you point over the berm, you get a DQ. Eric therefore teaches not to point over the berm -ever- in his course. (he also teaches a bunch of other things that make you even less likely to get penalized by an official, that you don't HAVE to do.)

Some that have taken his course have run around expanding on this. (Last year, at the Ontario provincials someone was pushing the rumor that the rule would exist at the Worlds. Fortunately, the RM for the Worlds was on site and disproved the rumor.)

Learning to operate within the confines of the range is probably a good habit to develop, (as 2 filthy points out - what if...) but with the majority of safety template rules and land regs that accompany North American ranges, I don't see it becoming mandatory anytime soon.
 
further, if you slow down a tape of anyone shooting you'll see EVERY gun climb quite high under recoil, even Rob Leatham would point over a berm while shooting. It's unavoidable, the muzzle jumps, even with a comp, they jump, and they jump quite a lot.
 
Unfortunately too many new/inexperienced/etc officials choose to take it upon themselves to expand on the rules, and confuse what is required/prohibited in ipsc with what they might think is preferred, or what they heard somewhere, or what they think might be the case, etc...

Officials should just do their job, and not try and go beyond that. If it's not in the rule book, it doesn't exist, and if they don't know what's in the rule book, they should re-read it, or take the RO course again. It's free.
 
Bartledan said:
I think it's France or Germany that has the "no pointing over the berm" LAW. Not rule, LAW. Just like our 10 m from steel LAW gives us a 10 m DQ where the rest of the IPSC world uses the 7m line for DQ.

Just do your mag changes the regular way.
Click to expand...

There is no 10 meter steel Law. it is a recomendation in the range guidelines that the Onatario CFO has choosen to enforce with out any legal autorization.
 
Bartledan said:
Just like our 10 m from steel LAW gives us a 10 m DQ where the rest of the IPSC world uses the 7m line for DQ.

.
Click to expand...

Please be so kind as to inform me of the exact form this law takes?

A reference would be great!

As far as I know it is POLICY not law......please prove me wrong.


Cheers!
 
stormbringer said:
As far as I know it is POLICY not law......please prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

there are a lot of "policies" that are in place to operate a range, the 10 Meter being one of them.. where they are "documented" I'm not sure.. I've heard of the 10M quite a few times, and it's a general policy not an "law".

This past week the president of our club, contacted the CFO for some info on Lead measurements /control etc, and he faxed her a few pages of what looks like a "guildeline" for indoor ranges. I'm going to see if I can find the whole document.
 
stormbringer said:
Please be so kind as to inform me of the exact form this law takes?

A reference would be great!

As far as I know it is POLICY not law......please prove me wrong.


Cheers!
Click to expand...

Oh, snap, son! That's just what they said in the RO course.
 
stormbringer said:
LOL!

Well as powerful as NROI may be...........they do not write Canadian Law!! LOL!!

Mind you I would not mind it very much if they actually DID!!
Click to expand...

And put all the retarded monkeys that currently write Canadian law out of work? Shame on you!
 
Walter Hornby said:
There is no 10 meter steel Law. it is a recomendation in the range guidelines that the Onatario CFO has choosen to enforce with out any legal autorization.
Click to expand...

I don't know about the 10m steel "law", but it is an adjustment from the rulebook that was requested by IPSC Canada and granted as a rules exemption by the Executive Council.
 
Murphy's Law Never Sleeps Eh

Sure you can rotate your pistol skyward to the 90 degree point "according to the rules", it is just that the "rules" dont conform 100% to Reality. Those who are "comfortable" with pistols chambering a live round while "inadvertently" pointed above the berm line have 1) never seen a live round go off when chambered when the reloaded primer was too high/primer type overly sensitive and new more powerful recoil spring installed/had a round "cook off" in 45 Celsius humidex conditions/seen a disconnector fail from "amateur adjustments" to pistols trigger pull.
There is, like it or not, always the "inherent inquest factor". How are you gonna like sitting in a witness stand in 2007 or 2008 and testifying that it was "generally accepted" that it is "okeh to let the muzzle point over the berm when speed reloading"..
This just in! "What goes up must come down". For example one range in Ontario had an incident where a bullet off a pepper popper wounded a person over 400 metres away.
Simply put "What goes on at the Range should INDEED STAY at the Range. Including all the bullets fired down range by either intent or as in the case of the so-called "accidental discharge" as well. Keeping the muzzle pointed at the berm is part and parcel of that.
On the RMS Titanic there were indeed the "correct number of lifeboats according to the prevailing 1912 rules.
Rules are rules and should be reviewed if many recognize an inherent safety hazard in following them.
At any inquest who will wind up explaining the rules if they prove to be inadequate?
 
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