Gun shop laws....

We cannot hand a firearm over the counter to a customer who does not hold a valid PAL, and most certainly not a Restricted firearm, for which the Chief Firearms Office has specifically demanded that we must confirm a valid PAL with Restricted endorsement before we are able to present such a firearm to any prospective customer.

So you as a valid PAL holder in a store cannot in your presence allow someone to handle a restricted class firearm?Does this mean I've misunderstood/broken the law when handing friends(who I know have no PAL) a restricted firearm to not only handle but in some cases fire(approved range in my presence)

For the record I've yet to show a PAL before handling a firearm here in BC or a proper license to sit in a car or on a motorcycle or handle scuba gear
 
So you as a valid PAL holder in a store cannot in your presence allow someone to handle a restricted class firearm?Does this mean I've misunderstood/broken the law when handing friends(who I know have no PAL) a restricted firearm to not only handle but in some cases fire(approved range in my presence)

For the record I've yet to show a PAL before handling a firearm here in BC or a proper license to sit in a car or on a motorcycle or handle scuba gear

As mandated by the Chief Firearms Office of Ontario, applicable to Ellwood Epps Sporting Goods, we are not permitted to provide Restricted-class firearms to individuals who do not possess or show a valid PAL with Restricted endorsement. This condition was applied to our business license by the CFO upon its most recent renewal. This condition -- as seems to be the case with a good number of CFO requirements -- was not enforced universally across all Ontario gun stores, as we know of several other outlets that do not have this restriction put in place by the CFO.

For Non-Restricted firearms, we were also advised that we are required to view a valid PAL before providing these guns to customers at our counter, however this requirement has been somewhat relaxed in that all of our Non-Restricted firearms are displayed with trigger locks installed upon the firearm.

Now, before anyone gets any ideas, the inclusion of a trigger lock on Restricted firearms did not eliminate the CFO's mandate to see a valid PAL prior to handing a Restricted gun to a customer.

Do we agree with this policy? Not entirely. But these are the rules imposed upon us by the Chief Firearms Office, much like the pretty little curtain that hangs in the window to our handgun room. Those of you who have visited our store know exactly what I'm talking about here. Apparently a curtain is a "safety measure" to stop unlicensed eyes from viewing Restricted firearms. We were explicitly advised that the curtain could only be opened for a customer in possession of a PAL with Restricted endorsement. All other customers are to avoid viewing those firearms when the curtain is opened. (Really!!! I am not making this up!!!)

Whatever practices you choose to employ on a shooting range in British Columbia do not have any bearing upon business practices here in Ontario. The CFO in this province has a mandate of its own with regard to firearms ownership and control. We gun shops are forced to operate under their restrictions, or risk the withdrawal of our business firearms license for non-compliance.

And to those who say Such-And-Such-A-Store in Anywhere-Ontario does not have those restrictions, remember this: The Chief Firearms Office and the OPP Headquarters buildings are located less than 15 kilometers from our store, making us a quick-access and easy target for imposition and enforcement of any new policies they wish to employ. In response, we here at Epps do what we can to accommodate our customers, and to keep our demands reasonable, but sometimes those policies -- as ridiculous as they might appear to those not directly involved in the firearms industry -- do run counter to common sense. Such is the industry in which we are all involved.
 
As mandated by the Chief Firearms Office of Ontario, applicable to Ellwood Epps Sporting Goods, we are not permitted to provide Restricted-class firearms to individuals who do not possess or show a valid PAL with Restricted endorsement. This condition was applied to our business license by the CFO upon its most recent renewal. This condition -- as seems to be the case with a good number of CFO requirements -- was not enforced universally across all Ontario gun stores, as we know of several other outlets that do not have this restriction put in place by the CFO.

For Non-Restricted firearms, we were also advised that we are required to view a valid PAL before providing these guns to customers at our counter, however this requirement has been somewhat relaxed in that all of our Non-Restricted firearms are displayed with trigger locks installed upon the firearm.


Do we agree with this policy? Not entirely. But these are the rules imposed upon us by the Chief Firearms Office, much like the pretty little curtain that hangs in the window to our handgun room. Those of you who have visited our store know exactly what I'm talking about here. Apparently a curtain is a "safety measure" to stop unlicensed eyes from viewing Restricted firearms. We were explicitly advised that the curtain could only be opened for a customer in possession of a PAL with Restricted endorsement. All other customers are to avoid viewing those firearms when the curtain is opened. (Really!!! I am not making this up!!!)

The CFO in this province has a mandate of its own with regard to firearms ownership and control. We gun shops are forced to operate under their restrictions, or risk the withdrawal of our business firearms license for non-compliance.

Harrier,
Thank you for the detailed response it has explained things,I had no idea how convoluted things are there.

Eric
 
Wow, my sympathies to Epps. This is exactly the kind of thing I would like to see my NFA money go towards fighting. The CFO should not be pulling laws out of his, well, fill it in as you see fit. :)
 
So they can put restrictions on business licenses that have no basis in law? Wow. I guess I never considered how it may be for dealers in this country if this is how it is for civilian ownership. Sucks for you guys, people are going to walk out of your store to protest your 'store policy' when you're just trying to comply with your CFOs regs.
 
Personally I don't even see why people are complaining about any of this. For heavens sake just do what they ask you to do and get it over with.

Instead of complaining to the business people why don't you tell the CFO and the Firearms center that this is all BS and that you have no intention of doing any of it?

Everybody is a Tuff guy on the Internet!

Graydog
 
So they can put restrictions on business licenses that have no basis in law? Wow. I guess I never considered how it may be for dealers in this country if this is how it is for civilian ownership. Sucks for you guys, people are going to walk out of your store to protest your 'store policy' when you're just trying to comply with your CFOs regs.

This we have been trying to get customers to understand for several years now. Unfortunately, for many the lightbulb simply is not coming on.

Really, we are in business to do business, not to alienate customers and drive them away from our store. The simple truth of the matter is, however, that sometimes our hands are tied by policies that we do not necessarily agree with, but under which we are forced to concede to a higher power if we wish to continue to offer the business that we have worked to build.

Going further, this same situation develops around warranties on firearms, for which there are plenty of threads slagging our service levels and policies, such as one only recently locked out on these very boards. As one of our esteemed board members recently noted, there are plenty of arm-chair quarterbacks out there who insist that they know how a business should be run, because that is how they would like to see things done. The bare reality, though, is that most of those people have no real idea of what goes on behind the counter, or beyond the doors that are closed to all but staff and employees. They do not see the negotiations that are conducted simply so we can continue to offer the services and the products we do offer, though not always the services some people expect.

Hopefully one day the majority of our customers will come to understand that we, too, are GunNutz in our own rights. And similarly, we, too, are just as frustrated by many of the BS policies implemented by big-box corporations and government offices alike. But alas, those policies are what keep the industry running . . . though not always as smoothly as we might like.
 
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Personally I don't even see why people are complaining about any of this. For heavens sake just do what they ask you to do and get it over with.

Instead of complaining to the business people why don't you tell the CFO and the Firearms center that this is all BS and that you have no intention of doing any of it?

Everybody is a Tuff guy on the Internet!

Graydog

Simply put, Graydog, it is far easier to come to an anonymous message board such as this one, to hide behind some fancy nickname and spout off all sorts of "They Done Me Wrong And I Ain't Never Shoppin' There Again!" rhetoric than it is to put your real name, and your real address, and your real telephone number on a legal petition to demand the changes they want to see. Why risk your own hide when you can publicly flog an established entity such as Ellwood Epps, or Al Flaghertys, or Gagnon Sports, or Shooters Choice, or any other retail outlet that has so much more to lose than Joe Blow-Hard who says "I had a bad experience once, so until Company X gets their s**t together, I'm going to slag them every chance I get and hope a dozen other readers will embellish my thread with their own stories to make the matter seem all the more world-shattering."

The idea of showing a PAL to handle a firearm was not an issue when the Long Gun Registry was still in place. So why is it an issue now?

The concept of confirming that a potential customer actually has the ability to be a customer should not be an alien concept in an industry fraught with regulations and prohibitions and limitations. As I stated earlier, I myself am more than happy to present my PAL to any counter staff at any store who might ask to see it. That tells me that they are interested in knowing that I am a legitimate customer, and that they might have an opportunity to assist me with my purchasing needs. It also tells them that I am not simply some walk-off-the-street tire-kicker bent on fulfilling my Call of Duty fantasies by drooling over that SASS rifle I shot on my XBox console while I led the invasion of Jerkmanistan in a multi-player forum.

Do I sound a little bitter on the subject? Absolutely, because it goes on and on and on, ad nauseum, and there is simply no need for it.
 
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Simply put, Graydog, it is far easier to come to an anonymous message board such as this one, to hide behind some fancy nickname and spout off all sorts of "They Done Me Wrong And I Ain't Never Shoppin' There Again!" rhetoric than it is to put your real name, and your real address, and your real telephone number on a legal petition to demand the changes they want to see. Why risk your own hide when you can publicly flog an established entity such as Ellwood Epps, or Al Flaghertys, or Gagnon Sports, or Shooters Choice, or any other retail outlet that has so much more to lose than Joe Blow-Hard who says "I had a bad experience once, so until Company X gets their s**t together, I'm going to slag them every chance I get and hope a dozen other readers will embellish my thread with their own stories to make the matter seem all the more world-shattering."

The idea of showing a PAL to handle a firearm was not an issue when the Long Gun Registry was still in place. So why is it an issue now?

The concept of confirming that a potential customer actually has the ability to be a customer should not be an alien concept in an industry fraught with regulations and prohibitions and limitations. As I stated earlier, I myself am more than happy to present my PAL to any counter staff at any store who might ask to see it. That tells me that they are interested in knowing that I am a legitimate customer, and that they might have an opportunity to assist me with my purchasing needs. It also tells them that I am not simply some walk-off-the-street tire-kicker bent on fulfilling my Call of Duty fantasies by drooling over that SASS rifle I shot on my XBox console while I led the invasion of Jerkmanistan in a multi-player forum.

Do I sound a little bitter on the subject? Absolutely, because it goes on and on and on, ad nauseum, and there is simply no need for it.

These are all good answers you put forward on this subject Harrier. I guess the problem that everyone in business has to face is that they will be responsible for the policies at there store whether they put them in place or someone else forces them to put in place, and they will have to live with the consequences.

I know the thread you are referring to that got locked out, however in that case that was a policy that your store took and it would have went differently if your policy was different. So on that case I will not take your side like I do on this one because if you have of had a different policy it would have had a different ending, that was totally in your control.

A poster before stated that he might have an attitude with someone because the person he dealt with before you was a complete A hole. This I believe to be the case most of the time. Read most of the posts on this board, man there is sure a lot of people with Attitude. Go into the store with a smile on your face, if you don't like the service or the polices just say thank you and leave. It is as easy as that guys.

Sometimes it is way better you keep ones mouth shut and be thought a fool, then to open it and remove all doubt.

Graydog
 
As mandated by the Chief Firearms Office of Ontario, applicable to Ellwood Epps Sporting Goods, we are not permitted to provide Restricted-class firearms to individuals who do not possess or show a valid PAL with Restricted endorsement. This condition was applied to our business license by the CFO upon its most recent renewal. This condition -- as seems to be the case with a good number of CFO requirements -- was not enforced universally across all Ontario gun stores, as we know of several other outlets that do not have this restriction put in place by the CFO.

For Non-Restricted firearms, we were also advised that we are required to view a valid PAL before providing these guns to customers at our counter, however this requirement has been somewhat relaxed in that all of our Non-Restricted firearms are displayed with trigger locks installed upon the firearm.

Now, before anyone gets any ideas, the inclusion of a trigger lock on Restricted firearms did not eliminate the CFO's mandate to see a valid PAL prior to handing a Restricted gun to a customer.

Do we agree with this policy? Not entirely. But these are the rules imposed upon us by the Chief Firearms Office, much like the pretty little curtain that hangs in the window to our handgun room. Those of you who have visited our store know exactly what I'm talking about here. Apparently a curtain is a "safety measure" to stop unlicensed eyes from viewing Restricted firearms. We were explicitly advised that the curtain could only be opened for a customer in possession of a PAL with Restricted endorsement. All other customers are to avoid viewing those firearms when the curtain is opened. (Really!!! I am not making this up!!!)

Whatever practices you choose to employ on a shooting range in British Columbia do not have any bearing upon business practices here in Ontario. The CFO in this province has a mandate of its own with regard to firearms ownership and control. We gun shops are forced to operate under their restrictions, or risk the withdrawal of our business firearms license for non-compliance.

And to those who say Such-And-Such-A-Store in Anywhere-Ontario does not have those restrictions, remember this: The Chief Firearms Office and the OPP Headquarters buildings are located less than 15 kilometers from our store, making us a quick-access and easy target for imposition and enforcement of any new policies they wish to employ. In response, we here at Epps do what we can to accommodate our customers, and to keep our demands reasonable, but sometimes those policies -- as ridiculous as they might appear to those not directly involved in the firearms industry -- do run counter to common sense. Such is the industry in which we are all involved.

So two questions 1, how long has this been in effect.
2. has Tromblays lest then 5 km from OPP Central faced with the same restrictions?
 
So two questions 1, how long has this been in effect.
2. has Tromblays lest then 5 km from OPP Central faced with the same restrictions?

The regulations have been in effect through our store since the inspection previous to our last -- about 4 years now.

I cannot speak for any regulations put in place for Trombly's, as I do not work there.

Again, though, as noted, the regulations imposed by the CFO have not been enforced universally through every gun store. We have had some stores tell us about regulations put in place that are above and beyond those imposed upon our shop, while others claim they have had no such restrictions or conditions applied to their licenses at all. It seems to be something of a game that the CFO is playing. Sort of a "We like you less; we like you more!" kind of thing.

Very frustrating. If you think it's bad from a consumer's point of view, try being on this side of the counter and having to justify those conditions over and over again, especially when those conditions that are the cause of so many headaches do not apply to other stores.

I think maybe the picture is starting to get just a little bit clearer now....
 
The regulations have been in effect through our store since the inspection previous to our last -- about 4 years now.

I cannot speak for any regulations put in place for Trombly's, as I do not work there.

Again, though, as noted, the regulations imposed by the CFO have not been enforced universally through every gun store. We have had some stores tell us about regulations put in place that are above and beyond those imposed upon our shop, while others claim they have had no such restrictions or conditions applied to their licenses at all. It seems to be something of a game that the CFO is playing. Sort of a "We like you less; we like you more!" kind of thing.

Very frustrating. If you think it's bad from a consumer's point of view, try being on this side of the counter and having to justify those conditions over and over again, especially when those conditions that are the cause of so many headaches do not apply to other stores.

I think maybe the picture is starting to get just a little bit clearer now....
Might have helped if the guy explained that in 2010, All he said was I needed to show my RPAL to handle the guns.
 
i have to agree with fdc,, no big deal, i flash the card and we're done, only takes 10 seconds.

Also agreed. Just at a CGN site sponsored store the other day. Flashed card, and he gave me his undivided attention and laid out the toys for me to handle. Ain't no big thing.

However, if I was in the process of waiting for my RPAL and could not handle the hardware even with proof of application and a well mannered attitude, I'd be a little p..... off.
 
Such a lot of stuff posted here about this issue, I am the guy who started this thread because I simply wanted to know if I could handle a restricted weapon, prior to the arrival of my rpal which is in the works, to see if it's would fit my small hand. It seems I can, and I did. Also I put a deposit on said pistol, all is good. This thread started because I had gone into Epps earlier, and asked to see the pistol I was curious about, and while casually leaning on the counter, a young fellow, said I had to have a Rpal to view, end of story, no explanation. I left the shop. Hence I started this thread. Curious about why I had been refused access, but now I know why, would have eliminated my concerns, about the self assumed slight, by Epps staff. Oddly enough, I have been stopping at your shop since, the Fifties, so was a bit perplexed by the treatment. Would of hoped for an explanation, not simply, a no can do buddy.
 
Also agreed. Just at a CGN site sponsored store the other day. Flashed card, and he gave me his undivided attention and laid out the toys for me to handle. Ain't no big thing.

However, if I was in the process of waiting for my RPAL and could not handle the hardware even with proof of application and a well mannered attitude, I'd be a little p..... off.

You have put a fantastic spin on this issue. As a customer it makes huge sense to drop your RPAL/PAL down on the counter before you even start to ask questions and request to handle guns. Hey, you're in the gun club and you are a VIABLE potential buying member! I imagine that any salesman would respect that fact that you have showed intent and can actually buy what you are asking about. Sales people have to qualify potential customers and that is hard work, your idea of slapping down the card actually makes their job easy for them and they will most likely cut to the chase and treat you like a player.
 
Epps is a special case, because they have extra scrutiny from the CFO and other authorities. Two years ago they had a customer bring in a loaded gun (possibly because it was jammed), and it discharged when he thumped the case on the counter. Two people caught that bullet. Since then, they have to go above and beyond to prove that stupid people won't do anything like that again.

Epps has been anal about that, way longer than 2 years.
 
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