Gunsmith course

[trevj]

Doing gunsmithing just on the side only non restricted for the last five years and not having a machine I have turned down only about half dozen rebarrel jobs. If you are only doing it part time and as a hobby you probably don't need a lathe or any heavy machinery. If you get into it about 10 percent of the jobs that come my way are just cleaning or reassembling something the client thought was easy to do. YouTube can be a double edged sword about 50 percent is just finding the right part and fitting it in their firearm.

Yeah. I think most guys are really overestimating the actual need for machine tools, and the skills to run them as are actually needed in the day to day of hanging out ones shingle as a Gunsmith.

The skills you need with a lathe, you can learn in a weekend, two weekends if you are borderline stupid. After that, it amounts to how you are willing to apply those skills, and do careful work. Threading. Centering up a part in a four jaw chuck. Turning a decent surface finish. Reading and following instructions. You don't need a Red Seal to do those things. Nor do you need to pee away your life getting said Seal, in order to learn how to do those things, as you will end up doing a lot of things that will never be used at all, if the end goal is gun work.

Hey, I LIKE machine tools! But I don't see the need to be the all singing and all dancing Machinist, as being a really good use of ones time if the end goal is not a job in a machine shop, or running your own ( in which case, business courses are STILL a really good idea!).

 

[blargon]

Consider liability if you are doing anything other than cleaning, as a part time smith...

 

[highlander]

Really? Invest several hundreds of hours getting a qualification in a trade that you then dump and go do something else?

That sounds like a shtty way to waste time and money!

Or, more to the point, an EXCELLENT way to waste time and money!

What he said.

You have a much better chance of getting a god paying job as a machinist then you do as a gunsmith.

Most gunsmiths I know only do it on the side or as a hobby, and NONE of them are getting rich from it.

 

[sean69]

From a legal standpoint, "gunsmith" is not a trade in Canada, you don't need certification nor are there any regulations surrounding it. Nor can you 'officially' apprentice (any longer). That's why all the online courses are basically parts swapping and cleaning courses. IF you want to be a gun plumber, then maybe that would be useful to you

However, if you want to do any sort of service to firearms commercially (or are considering a brick and mortar operation), you will need (should have) a commercial firearms license. ( http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/fab-eaf-eng.htm ) without that say for example someone wanted a pistol serviced .... they would have to actually transfer it to you in order to either ship it or leave it with you, or get an ATT to bring it by and wait while you fix.... PIA eh?
Most of us (hobbyists) probably think we don't need that if we do the odd side job, well, you can probably fly under the radar indefinitely, but the RCMP & CRA certainly do not see it that way!

Liability... yes. if someone blows themselves up after you tighten some grip screws & decide it's your fault? expect a call from the lawyers... where do you get liability insurance for that sort of thing?? God knows... no idea.

Machine skills? definitely useful, especially if you have to replace a strange left hand British screw that hasn't existed in 200 years... make it (comes up more often than you would think!) Can you learn enough machining skills in 2 weekends? No.

basically, being a "gunsmith" is something where you need to earn your bones, have the balls to call yourself one and have the skills to back it up.

OR

Take a course in the good ole' USA where it IS a trade.

 

[trevj]

Machine skills? definitely useful, especially if you have to replace a strange left hand British screw that hasn't existed in 200 years... make it (comes up more often than you would think!) Can you learn enough machining skills in 2 weekends? No.

I have taught a fair number of Military Apprentices the basics of running a lathe, and milling machine.

I'll stand by what I said above. You can learn the skills you need, in a couple weekends, if you are not borderline stupid.
That in no way implies that you will be competent and capable of being cut loose on the world as a machinist tradesman. Just that you now know enough that with practice, you may become competent.
Practice! Doing it once, then deciding for yourself that it was a good thing you will never have to do that again, put you into the borderline stupid category. Any skill that you want to develop will need practice.

Far better to spend a couple weekends learning what you can, then practicing those skills in your basement shop, than to spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on a course that takes you off in a whole wrong direction for where you are trying to go.

 

[Mildwood]

NAIT in Edmonton offers a gunsmithing course, if you have a similar trade school in Toronto Id check there. Requirements are some machining courses or 1st year Machinist or Millwright and you have to provide your own Rem 700 action and a barrel blank.

 

[ssapach]

NAIT in Edmonton offers a gunsmithing course, if you have a similar trade school in Toronto Id check there. Requirements are ticketed Machinist or Millwright and you have to provide your own Rem 700 action as they provide a barrel blank.

They do have some prerequisites, but not fully ticketed machinist or millwright:

For entrance into this program, you must have completed Machine Shop courses MACH101 and MACH105 OR minimum 1st year Machinist Apprentice OR minimum 1st year Millwright Apprentice.

You must also have an active Possession and Acquisition License (PAL) and must provide a copy of your PAL to NAIT upon registration.

 

[bearhunter]

Many colleges offer basic machinist courses in the evenings. That's a good place to start.

As mentioned most of the work done by the average smith doesn't require a lathe/milling machine. Especially if they're working on modern commercial actions.

Savage, with it's "barrel nut" system has definitely made swapping out barrels a lot easier and doable for people that wouldn't have been able to do so otherwise.

I like working on firearms. Rifles/pistols etc. I don't like doing stock work, other than simple bedding jobs or shortening length of pull. I'm great with metal but a wood butcher.

When it comes to smithing, I do a bit of work for other folks but not a lot. Most of the work I do is work that smiths with shops, trying to make a living turn down. Much of it is on old beaters that were passed on to present owners by deceased or aged relatives. Often rifles that they can't afford to purchase themselves. Sadly, because of financial constraints these fine old firearms suffer from all sorts of abuses.

Many of them aren't worth repairing when a gunsmith factors in his bench costs and even if the smith takes it easy, the owners often can't afford it.

I have two lathes/milling machine/drill press/tool post grinder/bench grinder/air compressor and a shop plumbed for air outlets at each work station. My shop is cluttered but other than one section, in an organized manner. This winter lots of stuff is getting sorted into totes and much of it will go to gunshows in 2020.

To be a good smith, you have to be a person whose able to pay attention to tedious detail. Then check the detail again.

Tools make the more interesting aspects of the job doable and worthwhile.

There are some very good smiths on this site, who are willing and able to share their experience and knowledge if you ask politely and don't tell them how to do the job before you ask the question.

If you like working on older firearms, which I do, then have fun. When the jobs become work and aren't fun, that's when I stop doing them.

I have helped hundreds of young people get viable target and hunting firearms to start their experiences with and taught them how to use/maintain them.

I can do this because I don't make my living at such things.

People that know me and have seen my equipment often are very surprised at the extent. I'm equipped better than a lot of commercial shops. It didn't happen overnight.

Canada is in desperate need of proficient gunsmiths. Our existing smiths are getting long in the tooth and can be cantankerous at times. Often getting overwhelmed with the work load.

It can be a demanding and profitable lifestyle for those with a good work ethic that doesn't require living by a clock.

Lastly, IT ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE.

 

[Warden70]

Probably better off starting out as a machinist, or at least getting some good experience in a shop with manual machines.

This is the best advice. We have no schools in Canada. Most gunsmiths start their careers doing machinist work elsewhere and later on apprentice under a experienced gunsmith. The only school I’m aware of that has a credited course is the Colorado School of trades in the US. Other than that I know a few weapons techs that have retired from the military that dabble in gunsmithing as a second career... you’ll never get rich as a gunsmith is what a renowned gunsmith told me. Good luck!

 

[Grizzly Adams]

How would online only work? Gunsmith seems like a fairly hands-on occupation.

Kinda like learning brain surgery on line.

Grizz

 

[ReverendX]

Really? Invest several hundreds of hours getting a qualification in a trade that you then dump and go do something else?

That sounds like a shtty way to waste time and money!

Or, more to the point, an EXCELLENT way to waste time and money!

How is getting a red seal a waste of time?

You could continue working as a machinist as you grow your gunsmith business.

Am I the only one who thinks being a full time gunsmith isnt very lucrative?

 

[sean69]

How is getting a red seal a waste of time?

You could continue working as a machinist as you grow your gunsmith business.

Am I the only one who thinks being a full time gunsmith isnt very lucrative?

growing a business is not a part time job.... if it was, we'd all be growing our retirement jobs.

it is as lucrative as your skills and work ethic allow it to be. and of course what your definition of lucrative is

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Really? Invest several hundreds of hours getting a qualification in a trade that you then dump and go do something else?

That sounds like a shtty way to waste time and money!

Or, more to the point, an EXCELLENT way to waste time and money!

Gunsmithing is only high precision machining. Can't handle the run of the mill stuff, which requires a degree of precision in itself, Guns aren't for you.

Grizz

 

[wildwestprofessionals]

I’m looking at taking a gunsmith course part time.
Where is a good place to take the course ? In the GTA
All I can find searching around in career colleges not sure if I want to do a course at one of them......
Any suggestions would be great

Edited post......
didn’t mean all online I understand there is hands on parts

I Got A GunSmithing Course 10 years ago Through AshWorth.edu it only cost me a little under $900. Canadian
i think i had 2 years to complete the Course i also have a few friends that also graduated from that same course and are now working in the trade... I hope this helps you... Cheers
https://www.ashworthcollege.edu/blo...-a-career-and-learn-how-to-become-a-gunsmith/

 

[WobblyHead]

Gunsmithing is only high precision machining. Can't handle the run of the mill stuff, which requires a degree of precision in itself, Guns aren't for you.

Grizz

High prescision with hand tools is a must for Gunsmithing but high precision machining all depends on what type of gunsmithing your doing for part time on the side you wont be dealing with high precision target rifles and people who own and shoot those don't send their firearms to someone who works out of their garage they send those to people who specialize in them and are willing to pay for the service. People who have a old Cooey or old hunting rifle they use for hunting are not willing to pay more than what the gun is worth to get it fixed and most Professional gunsmith are not willing to accept the firearm in case they get stuck with a firearm worth less than what they put into it. If he is only interested in doing something for a hobby or on the side there is no need for high precision machining.
Even doing it on the side I never really make any money because most times you need to by a tool to do a specific job it takes up all the profits but you slowly build up your tool collection and spares connections.

 

[trevj]

How is getting a red seal a waste of time?

You could continue working as a machinist as you grow your gunsmith business.

Am I the only one who thinks being a full time gunsmith isnt very lucrative?

Getting your Red Seal as a Machinist, in order to attempt to use those skills to be a Gunsmith, is a waste of all the time and training you will do, that is not Gunsmithing.

If you want to be a machinist, it works fine. If you can find the work, where you want to live. Not always a given either, at the rate the manufacturing sector is going, and the cyclic nature of the Oil Industry.

Gunsmithing is only high precision machining. Can't handle the run of the mill stuff, which requires a degree of precision in itself, Guns aren't for you.

Grizz

You don't need a Red Seal, or any other paperwork, to do fine tolerance machining. You need a few basic skills, and the practice to put them to use. Most of those skills cross over in to the realm of a professional Machinist, only if you go back 70 or so years in time. Do they still teach grinding HSS tools on the machinists courses? You pretty much need that skill, if you run in to that oddball Brit thread screw mentioned above. If you are going to make one to replace it, in any case.

Nor is Machining, the majority, or even a very large part, of what a Gunsmith does on a daily basis to earn a living.

I'll say again. Take some business courses. It doesn't matter if you make the nicest, most accurate custom guns made, if you are losing money out of your own pocket on each and every job, and don't understand why.

Learning to run a manual lathe, as well as a milling machine, well, has very little in common with any of the Machinist job posting I have read, most of which want someone who can pretty much think out loud in G-code.

But mostly, Gunsmithing as a Trade, is going to require a fella to put on about a dozen different hats, from salesman, to mechanic, through to cabinetmaker and painter, with some blacksmith and clockmaker worked in for good measure. It's not ONE skill, it's a LOT of skills, all of which you could be asked to carry out at any given time.

 

[QM 8687]

If I was ever to persue gunsmithing as a side gig (maybe after I retire as an accountan), this is route I am thinking.

I did.
BTW. In my young days. I was a reg force wpn tech, spent most evenings with others that taught me much about gunsmithing. I am very surprised to hear so many comments about not needing much skills or experience to work in this trade. In civy world, for a few years, I did CNC,metal lathe, treepan etc.
However, now when I smith, I stick with #1 and #4's and 98's plus antique bp arms. That is my choice. A real gunsmith that really knows his stuff will need to, off the top of my head.
Change barrels. Know why,adjust and how to carry out 1 of 4 types of headspace. Set back, rechamber, thread. Taper as I recall was 4 calculations for you want to be gunsmiths. Various crowns, T work,bolt work, drill tap optical instalations. Make simple metal parts. Know your threads, oh yes, I do play with Brit pitch guage too.
Do you weld? How about tig or mig or use of iron rod? How about soldering,properly?
Hot blueing with proper tanks,an even heat etc via official gas line, safely.
Wood work. Most of us do like this area. My chisels are made in England and worth it. A very good wood worker can make a full length stock from scratch, dimensions and angles correct, and yes charge 500+ dollars for it.
And much more including admin etc as mentioned by others.
Truth is yes, I have done all of the above. But I stick with my little area of arms for smithing.
Safety first.

 

[sean69]

I think what we have all learned here (and in the 5,000 other posts/forums ~ including posts in this forum) is that there are a lot of different definitions of "gunsmith" and we all subscribe to different variations of those definitions.



I think the best advice for the OP is to ask him what he thinks a gunsmith is and what he envisions/wants to do with his retirement then advise on useful skill sets based on that response.



Want to tune up Glocks for the rest of your life?? GREAT!! Learn German, get yourself a bunch of parts diagrams, screwdrivers and a wholesale account for Glock USA. (Glocksmith )

Accurize and rebarrel bench rifles? ALSO GREAT! You'll need more than a couple weekends at the lathe (ZING!) - heavy on the machine knowledge and measurement. Also heavy on the drilling of holes in receivers for scope mounts.

Restore that old Cooey/Winchester/Marlin? (WHY?) - you need a wood shop. some chewing tobaccie and a lot of long drawn out stories... as a bonus you get to keep the gun if your client dies while waiting 2 years for a part.

Build ARs? (ALSO WHY?) - buy yourself an armourer's wrench and a sign that says "Gun Plumber" (don't loan your wrench out, you won't get it back & be out of business)

Wanna make black powder/firelocks? (COME OVER TO THE DARK SIDE!!) Get awfully damn good with a file (and fast)



My definition of a gunsmith??
Someone who knows all and sees all; he is somewhere between 75 and 300 years old and lives in a tower on a hill with his dog. He has the power to make you feel like a small shameful child with a single withering glance for the most innocuous of questions you may have. He is the one who has owned at some point in time at least one of every gun known to man. He isn't available holidays, weekends after 4 or before 10 nor after noon on Fridays. Deer season is his high sabbath. If he finds you worthy he may accept your gun and will most likely fix it when the moon is correctly aligned...

He also prefers cash.

All fun aside, I can partially agree with trevj (for once) that for most "smiths" machining is a relatively small bit, a lot of part swapping and a surprising amount more stock/wood work than you would think.,

 

[fraserdw]

Took the ICS course in the 80s. No hands on but I didn't own hands on following the book. It made me more capable but I am not a gunsmith.

 

[Mildwood]

They do have some prerequisites, but not fully ticketed machinist or millwright:

I just looked and you are correct sir:
"For entrance into this program, you must have completed Machine Shop courses MACH101 and MACH105 OR minimum 1st year Machinist Apprentice OR minimum 1st year Millwright Apprentice."