Gunsmith Who Drill out Percussion Nipples in Canada
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fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
It shouldnt be hard for anybody local with a bit of machining experience and a milling machine to do that....but it will take some work to build a jig & center-drilling pilot to get everything lined up perfectly so be prepared for more cost than you might expect. To drill those out without hurting the threads isnt going to be a "quick job".
I think it could possibly be done in a lathe as well that has a 4-jaw and a tail-stock that lines perfectly with the head-stock as well but again measuring & line-up in the 4-jaw for each & every hole will cost time & money.
I once had to drill seized up cylinder axle out of an 1881 manufactured SAA without damaging the frame...pucker factor was "way high" on that project. Took me a year to work the courage to tackle that job but when it was done I had a couple thou thickness left of the axle and not a tool mark on the frame of the gun...and Im just a hobby machinist with a bit of expensive equipment so any machinist worth his salt should be able to do your job for you
I have sent you a PM.
I think it could possibly be done in a lathe as well that has a 4-jaw and a tail-stock that lines perfectly with the head-stock as well but again measuring & line-up in the 4-jaw for each & every hole will cost time & money.
I once had to drill seized up cylinder axle out of an 1881 manufactured SAA without damaging the frame...pucker factor was "way high" on that project. Took me a year to work the courage to tackle that job but when it was done I had a couple thou thickness left of the axle and not a tool mark on the frame of the gun...and Im just a hobby machinist with a bit of expensive equipment so any machinist worth his salt should be able to do your job for you
I have sent you a PM.
I managed to get two to unscrew after soaking in penetrating oil for a month, tapping a great deal and then a little heat (not too hot). Four will not move no matter what. I contacted one gunsmith who wants nearly $200 per hour and anticipates spending a hour per nipple = nearly $800.00. I know it's specialized job that seems excessive to me.
I really don't want to damage the threads as it is an original gun from the 1860s and I hope to use it on an occasional basis with light loads.
I really don't want to damage the threads as it is an original gun from the 1860s and I hope to use it on an occasional basis with light loads.
I've removed a fair number of seized nipples over the years.
When I drill one out, I use a series of drills, enlarging the hole until a very thin rim is left. I then use a small cold chisel to cut down one side, collapse what is left, and pick out the remains. Usually there is no damage to the threads.
Keep in mind that nipples are often hardened; this makes drilling more interesting.
$200 an hour, $800 total? Well, it can be the sort of job that causes grey hair. I suspect your 'smith simply doesn't want the job.
When I drill one out, I use a series of drills, enlarging the hole until a very thin rim is left. I then use a small cold chisel to cut down one side, collapse what is left, and pick out the remains. Usually there is no damage to the threads.
Keep in mind that nipples are often hardened; this makes drilling more interesting.
$200 an hour, $800 total? Well, it can be the sort of job that causes grey hair. I suspect your 'smith simply doesn't want the job.
Try contacting Paul at PR precision in Whitecourt, Alberta. https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/540-PR-Precision
I've had rifles with him and found him very reasonable and fast, and you can just look from the work he's posted his level of machining skill.
I've had rifles with him and found him very reasonable and fast, and you can just look from the work he's posted his level of machining skill.
The pertinent question is, how much is this gun worth to you?
I do think $200 an hour is over the top for a gunsmith but having specialized work done properly always costs money. Any fool can screw up a tricky job.
What tool did you use to unscrew the nipples? I'd drill out the nipple somewhat and then use a reverse threaded screw extractor after applying heat to the cylinder.
Your method is spot on and your last comment is probably also spot on.
just having some fun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Something to try it might work or not work
Do you have... or have a fried with a Ultrasonic cleaner
try the cylinder in a jar of Atf (with the heat on)
if you run it for several cycles and then try to remove nipples you are only out some time and a bit of ATF
Do you have... or have a fried with a Ultrasonic cleaner
try the cylinder in a jar of Atf (with the heat on)
if you run it for several cycles and then try to remove nipples you are only out some time and a bit of ATF
If you can get the hole on Center just keep stepping up sizes. I often use an Allen key or torques 3/8 drive socket. Tap it in and it seems to bite better then the easy outs. Sometimes heating causes hardening once the holes are threw I would fill with penetrating oil and let sit for a while. If you have a fine butane torch run it in the hole a bit. See if you can brake it loose.
Are the nipples original or replacements .... if they were original .. well I guess that's it for it to be "complete and original"
If they are replacements, could be stainless and/or hardened ... in which case you might be dealing with some galling rather than rust....
Sounds like your soaking was starting to work - try a few more cycles of that heat nipple - soak - tap - wrench ... repeat.
Until they either come out or you get sick of it. (is it possible to tap the nipple from inside the cylinder? i.e. basically tap it back and forth from outside then inside)
If still no love, you are stuck with: gunsmith - or drill/easy outs or last resort*
If you intend on taking it to a gunsmith - stoop at the heating/soaking/tapping/wrench - don't muss it further or you may get dinged for more $$$ ;(
Someone mentioned start drilling it out and using progressively larger easy outs... good plan, but you may wind up needing tiriaq's method if you wind up with too thin a wall for the easy out.
(fun note - if you find the nipples are hardened and you are just burning your drill out, grab a cheaper drill and burn it right out - the friction will probably get more heat into the nipple and not the cylinder than a torch will! - ten soak/tap/repeat etc)
* Last and "no going back" method would be an impact driver. You stand a good chance of breaking the nipple - just like breaking a barrel or breech plug - sometimes you need that bit of acceleration to get things started.
If they are replacements, could be stainless and/or hardened ... in which case you might be dealing with some galling rather than rust....
Sounds like your soaking was starting to work - try a few more cycles of that heat nipple - soak - tap - wrench ... repeat.
Until they either come out or you get sick of it. (is it possible to tap the nipple from inside the cylinder? i.e. basically tap it back and forth from outside then inside)
If still no love, you are stuck with: gunsmith - or drill/easy outs or last resort*
If you intend on taking it to a gunsmith - stoop at the heating/soaking/tapping/wrench - don't muss it further or you may get dinged for more $$$ ;(
Someone mentioned start drilling it out and using progressively larger easy outs... good plan, but you may wind up needing tiriaq's method if you wind up with too thin a wall for the easy out.
(fun note - if you find the nipples are hardened and you are just burning your drill out, grab a cheaper drill and burn it right out - the friction will probably get more heat into the nipple and not the cylinder than a torch will! - ten soak/tap/repeat etc)
* Last and "no going back" method would be an impact driver. You stand a good chance of breaking the nipple - just like breaking a barrel or breech plug - sometimes you need that bit of acceleration to get things started.
1. No, I just said the drill the hole big enough for the easy out. There is no benefit to making the big progressively bigger when using an easy out.
2. Burning the crap out of a cheap drill that imparts heat into the parts, WHILE DRIVING THE PARTS TOGETHER EVEN TIGHTER isn't really a good plan to get things apart.
3. Admittedly I haven't looked but I'd highly doubt there are impact sockets small enough to fit a nipple and even if there are, the chances of simply twisting off the top of the nipple to leave the threaded portion stuck in the hole is very high and does not make removal of the remainder any easier or less likely to damage the cylinder.
FWIW I worked in a machine shop years ago and spent a lot of time removing stuck and broken bolts from tooling and parts. Also have my own home machine shop and have removed more than a few stuck parts over the years.
You can try using "CRC Freeze-Off Super Penetrant" on the nipple. Sometimes it's works on frozen bolts when nothing else seems to. It may be worth the 30 bucks (Amazon.ca) to give it a try.
The name of the game dealing with antiques is "gently" - start small and work up progressively. (larger easy outs provide more surface area)
Negligible - if you are drilling for an easy out, you are doing that anyway. If your drill isn't cutting - you're not really driving anything. (run your tool in reverse if it bothers you)
If you do somehow manage to drive it deeper... congratulations - you broke the bond.
There aren't - you have to make one.
As I noted "last resort - You stand a good chance of breaking the nipple"
Snap on has, or had a set off easy outs that would work, they are straight, with sharp ribs on them and a built in nut , I bought them many years ago, so don't know if still made.
I have reverse drill bits as well, but as a rule did not make a difference.
tapered easy outs to me usally would just swell the part tighter in the hole, and real small ones break , than you are totally f@#%%^ as a reg. drill bit will not drill them.
Cobalt drill bits are quite good for hard steel, just don't go fast.
200.oo / hrs, I wish. When I started 2.25/h with papers.
I have reverse drill bits as well, but as a rule did not make a difference.
tapered easy outs to me usally would just swell the part tighter in the hole, and real small ones break , than you are totally f@#%%^ as a reg. drill bit will not drill them.
Cobalt drill bits are quite good for hard steel, just don't go fast.
200.oo / hrs, I wish. When I started 2.25/h with papers.
If you're going to use an easy out then make sure you get a good one, the cheap ones break easily and then you have a super hard chunk of steel embedded in the hole to try and remove. I recently had one break in a cylinder head and I basically got lucky in the removal process, it was really touch and go there for a while.
I'm guessing they'll be a special order unless you've got a really good heavy industry retailer in town who sells to the public.
I'm guessing they'll be a special order unless you've got a really good heavy industry retailer in town who sells to the public.
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
I wouldnt use any sort of "easy out" tapered or straight. The nature of those tools is to have to distort the metal to gain a bite for the turn and in this case the nipple hole is too small to begin with and once it is drilled out for a larger easy-out, the sidewalls remaining when any easy-out is pounded in would just bite the threads harder. Drilling to only leave a spiral thread left in the antique cylinder is the only method I would even attempt
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