GWOT lessons and the future carbine.

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ggh

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With NATO pulling out of Afghanistan, and the war on terror entering whatever damn stage this is supposed to be.......the last decade has had a big effect on weapons and tactics.

The 5.56 in fmj is terminally iffy at distance (although great with hollow points) and the 7.62 is generally considered big for overall carbine use......that leaves a lot of soldiers and gun pundits (gundits?) opining......

We have 6.8 spc, 6.5 grendel, 6.5 mpc, 300 blackout, and a slew of intermediate cartridges to choose from.

Where does the fighting military carbine go from here? In particular, the AR?
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If you had to go into harms way with the full backing and supply of a western military power what would you go with?
Piston AR in 6 x 45?
Tavor in 243 win?
SA80 in......in......ah forget it.
Or is status quo sufficient?

I m curious about this. :
 
Maybe going back to KISS principle. With modern short dots that have true 1x for reasonable price 1-6 like z6i (got one on order, only 1 more left in NA, new), imho, we will see 18 inch barrels prevail in 3 gun style setups, 45 degree offset iron sights. Simple, fast, light, good from 10 yards to 600 yards. Anything under 10 yards use the sidearm.

Or

going to see more SMGs shooting stuff like 5.7×28mm ???
 
I'm assuming nothing happens. Unless something so game changing comes out that the US military is willing to pay the price of adopting a new standard rifle round and platform to go with it, and all the training and logistical changes that come with that decision. It's a doozy !
 
The caliber won't change, because large scale munitions manufacturers are deeply invested in this. And because so too are today's requirements for a soldier to be able to carry enough rounds AFTER the firefight is finished, so you can return to base with at least one mag left. That's simply not going to happen with the heavier calibers.

For the most part, most nations will not change carbines. I believe there will be a small number of exceptions, and that's because IMO some will be impressed with the Tavor enough to purchase them, either for their special forces, their shock troop infantry and so on. But generally I don't think much will change, most nations will stick with what they have today.

Where things will change significantly, IMO, is:

- the optics/sighting systems: 1x to 8x, similar to but cheaper than the Elcan Spectre, increased use of thermal imager sights, possible use of miniature radar or LIDAR, electrooptical tracking/movement abilities, possible audio detection.

- barrels and receivers may be made lighter, perhaps by wider use of titanium

- muzzle devices will be improved further while keeping weight to a minimum

- designators like today's IR Lasers, may be improved and made much more advanced, with methods of thwarting enemy detection of the designator signature...unlike their ability to see that today using standard cell phone cameras.

- high speed training, perhaps inspired by the Magpul videos, and small improvements to the buttons/controls, for example the BAD levers that Magpul makes.


But generally, nations will not be interested in switching their entire military over to a 6.8mm. The USA is far too invested in this, so too is all the NATO countries, and the third world nations are FAR too dependent on supplies from the NATO countries to try some oddball cartridge that the troops may end up hating or dismissing as " uneeded". Basically, switching will cost too much, leave the troops with a heavier recoiling gun, with less ammo carried due to weight, and any shortcommings at longer distances are nearly irrelevant to nearly all infantry on a global scale, because frankly most don't have the skills to be effective marksmen at 200m anyway. And those that DO have those skills, like Canadian Infantrymen for instance, are doing just fine at 400m and 500m with no improvements. And if you really need more punch at long distances, you can do what the Brits did, and buy one of the .308 AR's for one marksman per Section or Platoon.

Keep in mind, that the vast majority of soldiers in wars, never actually end up shooting at an enemy anyway. Most are carried and only shot at the range, during times of war.
 
I think RickR1100 has it.

At this point the idea of a total shift would require moving literal mountains.

More likely that we will see advancements in propellent and projectiles. Maybe someone figures out how to get a cost effective metamaterial to use in the place of lead, and we can do things like have a .224 projectile that weighs 175 grains like a .308 currently does.

I forsee improvements in ergonomics and ambidexterity, with standarization of ambi bolt and mag releases.

Maybe some increased diversity in loadout, which might just be as simple as having a guy or two carrying a .308 AR. Give them to the guys with the coolest heads and the steadiest aim.
 
I think the most practical is to got to a heavier bullet. I believe there is a AR15 weapons system that uses 77gr bullets and is good out to 500y. I forgot what it's called.

I don't think the 5.56 round is the problem, its more of a case of using right gun in the right environment. In Vietnam, in the jungle, 300y range is more than enough considering the florah. But in the wide open dessert of the middle east's terrain, soldiers are engaging 1200y+. I think that in these wide open spaces, soldiers would be better served by a battle rifle possibly with a scope. In the cities and denser terrains, any 5.56x45 rifle would suffice.
 
I think 300Blkout is way forward. It maintains all the benefits of a traditional AR and increases the power. Same mags (and number of rounds) same equipment that troops already have (no cost to re equipe). I really can't see a downside to this round.
 
Too much institutional inertia, as others have said, will mean incremental changes.

Most radical change that could conceivably happen is an "arms locker" type scenario where multiple uppers are available depending on the mission. The adoption of the Soviet style DMR/squad sniper role and its success shows that there's still plenty of life in an M4 with 5.56 for most troops.
 
I think 300Blkout is way forward. It maintains all the benefits of a traditional AR and increases the power. Same mags (and number of rounds) same equipment that troops already have (no cost to re equipe). I really can't see a downside to this round.

Useless against body armour is kind of a downside....
That's the tradeoff with 5.56, against soft targets M155 makes a mess, against armour its hit or miss depending on distance. Bring in the ss109 and you get good armour penetration at distance but less of a mess against soft targets.
 
I think 300Blkout is way forward. It maintains all the benefits of a traditional AR and increases the power. Same mags (and number of rounds) same equipment that troops already have (no cost to re equipe). I really can't see a downside to this round.

300 BO seems like a decent idea, but didn't they go too big for those case dimensions? If they stopped at 6 x 45 or 6.5 x 45 they would have at least retained some trajectory improvement over the enemy's weapon of choice. But with the arc of the blackout and 39, accuracy would suffer. Especially in a place like Afghanistan.
 
Some legal challenge to the ridiculous idea of fmj-only would be nice. A 69 gr ballistic hollow point would really help the ARs seeming anemia.

You can drop a 500lb bomb on a terrorist, or frag him with a grenade, but GOD forbid you shoot him with a hollow point or expanding bullet. :(
 
For argument sake, if you could pick your own rifle setup and caliber without concern for re-supply, what would you go with? How many of us would stay with an M4/C8 in 5.56 60ish gr in a place like Afghanistan?

That means a rifle/caliber that will be used in cqb, long range, in vehicles and long patrols. Would a shorty C8 in 5.56 be your first choice in that hell hole?

I couldn't imagine settling for anything less than an AR 10-type rifle?
- chambered in 6.8 or 243 win
- magnified trijicon or 1-6x scope
- maybe piston driven?
 
5.56 isn't going to get changed any time soon. The Europeans are broke, the Americans close to it. No one has any appetite to waste cash on stuff like rifles with limited spin off's.

That said you'll probably see some 308 coming back as squad marksmen since it's a stock caliber.

Spec Ops might get reissued some exotic stuff but they're so small that they don't really count in the big picture.

The only major change that might happen is the return to piston uppers. As the existing uppers show age and wear it's not a big deal to swap them out for a piston and not so much more expensive that it would stretch budgets.
 
I think the most practical is to got to a heavier bullet. I believe there is a AR15 weapons system that uses 77gr bullets and is good out to 500y. I forgot what it's called.

I don't think the 5.56 round is the problem, its more of a case of using right gun in the right environment. In Vietnam, in the jungle, 300y range is more than enough considering the florah. But in the wide open dessert of the middle east's terrain, soldiers are engaging 1200y+. I think that in these wide open spaces, soldiers would be better served by a battle rifle possibly with a scope. In the cities and denser terrains, any 5.56x45 rifle would suffice.

In Vietnam 100 yards was the norm in light to dense flora. Thats why the 7.62x39 did so well.
In the desert 300 to 500 yards is normal.
In urban 50 yards

Not too sure where the next wars will be fought, but considering the Syrian conflict, dirty and dusty urban seems to be where it's going to be. The Tavor would do extremely well in those conditions.
 
For the record, I m sure nothing is changing any time soon either. Here's the situation I was in many years ago.

I was on one of the last regimental rifle teams to compete with the 7.62 C1. We were switching the next year to 5.56. 10 out f 11 team shooters thought that dropping to the 'puny' cartridge was crazy, especially with all the intermediate stuff in between. Most were willing to consider a modest drop in caliber, but not to .22. Several decades later here we are.

Ask any military shooter today the same question. "Is there a caliber BELOW 5.56 that you would be willing to accept to protect your life in normal combat operations? "
Rhetorical question really. There is no acceptable caliber below .223.
So, with that as perspective, we sit ballistically at the bottom of the barrel and inertia is keeping us here.
 
Useless against body armour is kind of a downside....
That's the tradeoff with 5.56, against soft targets M155 makes a mess, against armour its hit or miss depending on distance. Bring in the ss109 and you get good armour penetration at distance but less of a mess against soft targets.

556 wont penetrate hard armour plate any better than 300 BLK. On soft body armour, 300 BLK will penetrate easily and carries a much bigger bullet. I have tested subsonic 150gr 300 BLK against level 2A vest and the bullet went through the front of the vest, through the back of the vest, through the 2x4 the vest was stapled to and disappeared so I know that the 300 will do the job.
 
Nothing is going to happen until something 2X better than M16/5.56 comes along.
It's sad but even the best new cartridge with the best new rifle is not 2X better than the almost 50 year old M16/5.56 combo.

If I had any influence in this, I would insure that NATO soldiers have the best possible infantry weapon but it's simply not going to happen.
A similar situation happened when the British Army used the Brown Bess for a hundred years.

Alex
 
Nothing is going to happen until something 2X better than M16/5.56 comes along.
It's sad but even the best new cartridge with the best new rifle is not 2X better than the almost 50 year old M16/5.56 combo.

If I had any influence in this, I would insure that NATO soldiers have the best possible infantry weapon but it's simply not going to happen.
A similar situation happened when the British Army used the Brown Bess for a hundred years.

Alex

That is, sadly, true. :(
 
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