The timeline here is most likely that when these MkIII's were guarding Plymouth Harbour, they still looked like a real Ross MkIII. When the time came (late 1950's-early 1960's) toget rid of surplus weapons, these MkIII's were butchered then in the UK, marked "not English Make" then dumped on the Kanadian and US markets. I recall seeing them when they got to Hercules on Yonge Street in Tranna in 1958, as well as being advertised by International Firearms on Bleury in Morael for not much more than equally-butchered MkIII and MkIV Smellies....no big deal then,and certainly no big deal now, either. Their ties to history are gone.
had my ross out today
- Thread starter gallen270
- Start date
timely information
I'd be very surprised indeed to find a fine sporting Ross .280 M-10 stamped up with any sort of stamps at all, nevermind fourteen of them! OTOH, if you could possibly be referring to a/some Military MkIII Ross rifles, that's a different story. Ross model identification is not really all that difficult, and a quick check over at RossRifle.com should clear up the confusion.
If possible, are you in a position first to really identify just which Ross we're discussing here, then supply a detailed photo of the actual "PLY" stamps? Once we're all on the same page, please tell us if some/any of these rifles show additional Brit Proofmarks on barrels and receivers.
Anxiously awaiting your response(s)....
Correction by Buffdog to the above
ADDENDUM: O.K., O.K. We are NOT talking about Ross M-10 Sporters here, We are talking about M-10 Military Ross .303 British Calibre rifles with the typical military markings on them that were apparently converted to a Sporter somewhere along the way. In addition, the ones I have seen have a "Not English Made" stamp and British proof marks. So far, the top number is PLY 6009, so if the series was started at 1000, then there had to be at least 5000 rifles that were converted.
Thank you for attempting to add to my education. While my first love is the SMLE and Lee Enfield rifles, at several times during my 69 years of age, I have had, bought, sold, and fired several Ross rifles, including M-10 Sporters in .280 Ross, M-10 Military Ross rifles, 1905 Ross rifles, and .22 Ross rifles. While you never stop learning, I have NOW learned that I should have specified Ross M-10 MILITARY converted sporter in my post, to avoid the nit-pickers!
Well, now, ROSSGUY. Recognize the paragraph above in bold print. It was your answer to a request for information that I put on "Milsurps.com" last night. As you can see, I modified my post with the information in the paragraph immediately above this one.
If you really had the information about these rifles in the first place, then would it not have been just as easy, and more civil, to give it out then, instead of an arrogant response.
The thing is, you did not have the information on the PLY markings until Galen270 found it out this afternoon, and I then put a post on Milsurps.com to share the information with others, crediting it to Galen270's initiative and actions. You did not have the "not English make" information until I sent you a PM with the marking details. If you had, you would have posted it yourself, for all the community to see.
Your supposition that there is "no big deal then, and certainly no big deal now either. Their ties to history are gone" is not the way I see it. We now have a plausable identification for these rifles, which we did not have two days ago. These rifles do have a history, and just because they were sporterized does not make that history go away, or make it insignificant.
You are located in Dixie. Using your reasoning, since the South lost the United States Civil War, then it was no big deal, and is historically of no value. Try telling that one to your neighbours.
But don't try to tell me about these rifles being sold in Toronto during the late 50s. I lived during that period, and being less than one hour away from Toronto, in my teen age years, I practically visited Honest Ed's and Hercules, and a few others every week end. (If you lived there then, remember the BEST address for a Gun Shop....3006 Danforth Road) I bought surplus rifles such as Martini Cadets for $9.95, SMLEs at the same price, Carcanos, Greek Mannlichers, Mausers, and all the other different flavors that were offered. BUT, I DIDN'T SEE ANY ROSS RIFLES OFFERED. If they had been, I would have had some.
I bought German artillery range finders, a Triumph shaft drive Despatch Riders bike that was new in a crate, and, from Honest Ed's, a very large box that had a dis-assembled Jeep in it, the frame diagonal, the motor on the bottom, and parts wherever they could cram them in. BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANY SPORTERIZED ROSS RIFLES WITH THE PLY MARKINGS ON THEM.
I haunted Southern Ontario Gun Shows, bought boxed Lewis Guns that came out of Ireland, lots of Sten Guns, including a Mark I, MP-40, and an unfired Savage manufactured 1928 Thompson, BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANY OF THESE ROSS RIFLES AT THE GUN SHOWS, AND THEY SURE AS HECK WOULD HAVE BEEN.
So, in conclusion, like lots of these posts on the internet, I am afraid that I have to take your post "with a grain of salt."
I'd be very surprised indeed to find a fine sporting Ross .280 M-10 stamped up with any sort of stamps at all, nevermind fourteen of them! OTOH, if you could possibly be referring to a/some Military MkIII Ross rifles, that's a different story. Ross model identification is not really all that difficult, and a quick check over at RossRifle.com should clear up the confusion.
If possible, are you in a position first to really identify just which Ross we're discussing here, then supply a detailed photo of the actual "PLY" stamps? Once we're all on the same page, please tell us if some/any of these rifles show additional Brit Proofmarks on barrels and receivers.
Anxiously awaiting your response(s)....
Correction by Buffdog to the above
ADDENDUM: O.K., O.K. We are NOT talking about Ross M-10 Sporters here, We are talking about M-10 Military Ross .303 British Calibre rifles with the typical military markings on them that were apparently converted to a Sporter somewhere along the way. In addition, the ones I have seen have a "Not English Made" stamp and British proof marks. So far, the top number is PLY 6009, so if the series was started at 1000, then there had to be at least 5000 rifles that were converted.
Thank you for attempting to add to my education. While my first love is the SMLE and Lee Enfield rifles, at several times during my 69 years of age, I have had, bought, sold, and fired several Ross rifles, including M-10 Sporters in .280 Ross, M-10 Military Ross rifles, 1905 Ross rifles, and .22 Ross rifles. While you never stop learning, I have NOW learned that I should have specified Ross M-10 MILITARY converted sporter in my post, to avoid the nit-pickers!
Well, now, ROSSGUY. Recognize the paragraph above in bold print. It was your answer to a request for information that I put on "Milsurps.com" last night. As you can see, I modified my post with the information in the paragraph immediately above this one.
If you really had the information about these rifles in the first place, then would it not have been just as easy, and more civil, to give it out then, instead of an arrogant response.
The thing is, you did not have the information on the PLY markings until Galen270 found it out this afternoon, and I then put a post on Milsurps.com to share the information with others, crediting it to Galen270's initiative and actions. You did not have the "not English make" information until I sent you a PM with the marking details. If you had, you would have posted it yourself, for all the community to see.
Your supposition that there is "no big deal then, and certainly no big deal now either. Their ties to history are gone" is not the way I see it. We now have a plausable identification for these rifles, which we did not have two days ago. These rifles do have a history, and just because they were sporterized does not make that history go away, or make it insignificant.
You are located in Dixie. Using your reasoning, since the South lost the United States Civil War, then it was no big deal, and is historically of no value. Try telling that one to your neighbours.
But don't try to tell me about these rifles being sold in Toronto during the late 50s. I lived during that period, and being less than one hour away from Toronto, in my teen age years, I practically visited Honest Ed's and Hercules, and a few others every week end. (If you lived there then, remember the BEST address for a Gun Shop....3006 Danforth Road) I bought surplus rifles such as Martini Cadets for $9.95, SMLEs at the same price, Carcanos, Greek Mannlichers, Mausers, and all the other different flavors that were offered. BUT, I DIDN'T SEE ANY ROSS RIFLES OFFERED. If they had been, I would have had some.
I bought German artillery range finders, a Triumph shaft drive Despatch Riders bike that was new in a crate, and, from Honest Ed's, a very large box that had a dis-assembled Jeep in it, the frame diagonal, the motor on the bottom, and parts wherever they could cram them in. BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANY SPORTERIZED ROSS RIFLES WITH THE PLY MARKINGS ON THEM.
I haunted Southern Ontario Gun Shows, bought boxed Lewis Guns that came out of Ireland, lots of Sten Guns, including a Mark I, MP-40, and an unfired Savage manufactured 1928 Thompson, BUT I DIDN'T SEE ANY OF THESE ROSS RIFLES AT THE GUN SHOWS, AND THEY SURE AS HECK WOULD HAVE BEEN.
So, in conclusion, like lots of these posts on the internet, I am afraid that I have to take your post "with a grain of salt."
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can cosmic measure his barrel, or even better, take us some photo's? 
mine doesnt have hardley a trace of the color case hardening left on the bolt, smellie? cosmic? care to chime in? if they were all chopped the same, maybe they all got a reblue at one time many years ago?
mine doesnt have hardley a trace of the color case hardening left on the bolt, smellie? cosmic? care to chime in? if they were all chopped the same, maybe they all got a reblue at one time many years ago?
Give me a little time, friend. My digital just died and I got a new one (12MP, of all things) but still don't have the software downloaded to this antique. Have to figure out how NOT to post 100MB pics, too!
Soon as I can, range time.
Barrel length on PLY 3692 is same as PLY 6009: 24.5" precisely.
PLY 3692 receiver has been blued. Back half of bolt is blued well, but some colour case-hardening is visible on the forward half, although the basic colour is gray. I have done nothing to this rifle, apart from clean it up a bit and let it sit. Right now it needs a good scrub and a trip to the range. Rifling still is strong, so we shall see what we shall see.
Soon as I can, range time.
Barrel length on PLY 3692 is same as PLY 6009: 24.5" precisely.
PLY 3692 receiver has been blued. Back half of bolt is blued well, but some colour case-hardening is visible on the forward half, although the basic colour is gray. I have done nothing to this rifle, apart from clean it up a bit and let it sit. Right now it needs a good scrub and a trip to the range. Rifling still is strong, so we shall see what we shall see.
Mines 20 1/2 inches... No top wood, and the remaining stock has been heavily sanded, and oil stained. Mine has been reblued at some point, and has some color case remaining. I got it for cheaps, as it wasnt firing reliably. The firing pin spring had been replaced by someone in the past, and was incorrect (too short). I replaced the spring.
Will post a pic shortly.
Will post a pic shortly.
Buffdog- I fail to understand why you insist upon referring to the Military Mark Three as "M-10". R-10, E-10 and M-10 were the three Commercial Ross rifles, along with the commercially-numbered .280 Military Match rifles (see mine at RossRifle.com Photo Album) Will you call it an M-10 also?
The Military rifles produced on the similar receiver were the Canadian Contract MkIII and the Brit Contract MkIIIB.
I'm two years older than you, so may well have been through the doors earlier at Hercules.....I also grew up less than one hour from Tranna. As you walked down center ice past the wooden barrels with the Browning HP wooden holster/stocks for $1.50 each, the line-up of butchered Ross rifles was just to the right.
The Canada I grew up in is gone for good, but the South will rise again! Over and out.
The Military rifles produced on the similar receiver were the Canadian Contract MkIII and the Brit Contract MkIIIB.
I'm two years older than you, so may well have been through the doors earlier at Hercules.....I also grew up less than one hour from Tranna. As you walked down center ice past the wooden barrels with the Browning HP wooden holster/stocks for $1.50 each, the line-up of butchered Ross rifles was just to the right.
The Canada I grew up in is gone for good, but the South will rise again! Over and out.
Perhaps friend Buffdog is referring to the things as M-10 because each and every one of them, all 300,000-and-odd, had "M-10 PATENTED" stamped prominently on the receiver ring. And I don't say FRONT receiver ring because EVEN I know that the Ross had only the one; what appears as a rear receiver ring actually is built-up with 5 extra parts, 4 of which were screws.
And this brings us to the commercial .280 rifle, the receiver of which was not 'similar' but IDENTICAL to the military one. They were made on the same line at the same time, by the same men and same machines. Commercial receivers simply were fitted with a 'flat-top' rear receiver extension and the military rifles with receiver extensions which had the necessary bosses for attachment of the (deservedly) famed Ross Battle Aperture Sight.
But the fact is that we are concerned here with a particular lot of Mark III MILITARY rifles, all with markings to the same unit which does NOT appear on any Canadian register and which NOW appears to indicate that the rifles served with the Royal Marine Infantry out of PLYmouth. There appear to have been at least 5,000 rifles in this batch, a number which hardly is insignificant; it should be researched thoroughly. And that is precisely what we are doing.
As to the historical value of these rifles, I think that is for me to judge. That actually IS my background, as an historian with an additional specialisation in the historical development of smallarms systems in the period 1815 - 1915. That was what my Thesis was in. But I don't have to open my mouth about these rifles: they bring their history with them, stamped permanently onto them. London Proofs. NOT ENGLISH MAKE. Dominion Proofs. Commercial stamps which never appear on military rifles. It's all there, right in front of us: the very stuff of history, stamped into steel.
We know now that these were Royal Marine Infantry rifles and that there were some 5,000 of them, possibly more. Five thousand rifles are not necessary to guard a single Naval base which is stuffed with 12-inch guns and other fun toys. These rifles were given to Royal Marines, a vast portion of whom served on ships around the world, on Atlantic patrol, doing anti-submarine duty, escorting convoys, laying and sweeping mines, exploding mines and all the rest. If they had served on ONE particular ship, as the HMS Canada Rosses, they would be of great historical import. But these served all over the map... any map.... every map. What we NEED is a record of which rifles were aboard which ships, then we could make an effort to reconstruct the tales which each rifle holds. But we are not likely to obtain such a document. In all probability, it was burned, the better part of a century ago. But whatever, THESE rifles were a part of THAT and THAT is their historical significance. They are TRUE EVIDENCE of Service in The Great War For Civilisation 1914 - 1919, as it appears on the Victory Medal. That they have been turned into Sporters is indeed unfortunate, but at least they SURVIVE.
And we have them.
And now we know something more about them.
Any more PLYs out there? Come on; 'fess up! We have 19 survivors now.
How many more ARE there?
And this brings us to the commercial .280 rifle, the receiver of which was not 'similar' but IDENTICAL to the military one. They were made on the same line at the same time, by the same men and same machines. Commercial receivers simply were fitted with a 'flat-top' rear receiver extension and the military rifles with receiver extensions which had the necessary bosses for attachment of the (deservedly) famed Ross Battle Aperture Sight.
But the fact is that we are concerned here with a particular lot of Mark III MILITARY rifles, all with markings to the same unit which does NOT appear on any Canadian register and which NOW appears to indicate that the rifles served with the Royal Marine Infantry out of PLYmouth. There appear to have been at least 5,000 rifles in this batch, a number which hardly is insignificant; it should be researched thoroughly. And that is precisely what we are doing.
As to the historical value of these rifles, I think that is for me to judge. That actually IS my background, as an historian with an additional specialisation in the historical development of smallarms systems in the period 1815 - 1915. That was what my Thesis was in. But I don't have to open my mouth about these rifles: they bring their history with them, stamped permanently onto them. London Proofs. NOT ENGLISH MAKE. Dominion Proofs. Commercial stamps which never appear on military rifles. It's all there, right in front of us: the very stuff of history, stamped into steel.
We know now that these were Royal Marine Infantry rifles and that there were some 5,000 of them, possibly more. Five thousand rifles are not necessary to guard a single Naval base which is stuffed with 12-inch guns and other fun toys. These rifles were given to Royal Marines, a vast portion of whom served on ships around the world, on Atlantic patrol, doing anti-submarine duty, escorting convoys, laying and sweeping mines, exploding mines and all the rest. If they had served on ONE particular ship, as the HMS Canada Rosses, they would be of great historical import. But these served all over the map... any map.... every map. What we NEED is a record of which rifles were aboard which ships, then we could make an effort to reconstruct the tales which each rifle holds. But we are not likely to obtain such a document. In all probability, it was burned, the better part of a century ago. But whatever, THESE rifles were a part of THAT and THAT is their historical significance. They are TRUE EVIDENCE of Service in The Great War For Civilisation 1914 - 1919, as it appears on the Victory Medal. That they have been turned into Sporters is indeed unfortunate, but at least they SURVIVE.
And we have them.
And now we know something more about them.
Any more PLYs out there? Come on; 'fess up! We have 19 survivors now.
How many more ARE there?
THe only reason that we can identify the HMS Canada Rosses is because the Chileans thoughtfully marked them after they acquired the vessel, complete with stores.
Now were these used by RMs onboard, or were they ship's stores for use by sailors as needed?
Were the PLY rifles issued with the RN altered bayonets and scabbards?
The Chileans marked their bayonets to match their rifle serials. Any PLY marked bayonets?
The PLY rifles are seen because a batch was sold off, in a lump, relatively recently. Did any PLY rifles survive commercial sporterization?
The CRB rifles are common enough that they too must have been sold off in a lot, although some of them were not sported.
Now were these used by RMs onboard, or were they ship's stores for use by sailors as needed?
Were the PLY rifles issued with the RN altered bayonets and scabbards?
The Chileans marked their bayonets to match their rifle serials. Any PLY marked bayonets?
The PLY rifles are seen because a batch was sold off, in a lump, relatively recently. Did any PLY rifles survive commercial sporterization?
The CRB rifles are common enough that they too must have been sold off in a lot, although some of them were not sported.
PLY and other Royal Marine Ross rifles
Hopefully, we may soon have some more answers to the Royal Marine rifles.
The following is a copy of an e-mail that I sent to the Royal Marine Historian a couple of days ago.
Dear Sir
You have probably had an e-mail from a fellow gun collector in Canada, regarding a M-10 Ross rifle with a PLY ###X serial number on it. From a Historical point of view, there seems to be at least 17 surviving Ross rifles with the PLY serial numbers stamped on them, the highest so far being PLY 6009. There are probably more, as only the shooters and collectors are interested in the information.
Your Office wrote that PLY would indicate Plymouth Division, Royal Marine Infantry, that CH would be Chatham, and PO would be Portsmouth. As an Amateur Historian and Gun Collector, I would like to thank you for your effort in helping us to identify these rifles.
As a Historian yourself, you know that there are always more questions about something. It would seem that these rifles were "Sporterized" by some company, as all seem to be similar in the modifications.
Could I impose upon you to add some more information about these rifles to our files?
Some questions that come to mind are:
Are there any surviving records of these Ross M-10 rifles?
Were there certain blocks of numbers assigned to particular units?
When were these rifles sold, and to whom?
How many Ross M-10 rifles were originally accepted and issued?
Dates of use, and subsequent sale would be helpful.
This is the answer that I received this morning. It would seem that these (according to some people "historically indignificant) Ross rifles has sparked an interest in the Royal Marine Historian, and maybe they can now be looked at as "Historically Significant".
Thank-you for this interesting email. However small arms are not one of my areas of expertise, so I will forward on your query to various colleagues, and let you know if I find out anything. I have to say,that I would be interested in knowing the answers to your questions.
Now, we have the Royal Marine Historian on our side. Maybe the best is yet to come.
Hopefully, we may soon have some more answers to the Royal Marine rifles.
The following is a copy of an e-mail that I sent to the Royal Marine Historian a couple of days ago.
Dear Sir
You have probably had an e-mail from a fellow gun collector in Canada, regarding a M-10 Ross rifle with a PLY ###X serial number on it. From a Historical point of view, there seems to be at least 17 surviving Ross rifles with the PLY serial numbers stamped on them, the highest so far being PLY 6009. There are probably more, as only the shooters and collectors are interested in the information.
Your Office wrote that PLY would indicate Plymouth Division, Royal Marine Infantry, that CH would be Chatham, and PO would be Portsmouth. As an Amateur Historian and Gun Collector, I would like to thank you for your effort in helping us to identify these rifles.
As a Historian yourself, you know that there are always more questions about something. It would seem that these rifles were "Sporterized" by some company, as all seem to be similar in the modifications.
Could I impose upon you to add some more information about these rifles to our files?
Some questions that come to mind are:
Are there any surviving records of these Ross M-10 rifles?
Were there certain blocks of numbers assigned to particular units?
When were these rifles sold, and to whom?
How many Ross M-10 rifles were originally accepted and issued?
Dates of use, and subsequent sale would be helpful.
This is the answer that I received this morning. It would seem that these (according to some people "historically indignificant) Ross rifles has sparked an interest in the Royal Marine Historian, and maybe they can now be looked at as "Historically Significant".
Thank-you for this interesting email. However small arms are not one of my areas of expertise, so I will forward on your query to various colleagues, and let you know if I find out anything. I have to say,that I would be interested in knowing the answers to your questions.
Now, we have the Royal Marine Historian on our side. Maybe the best is yet to come.
