Hard cast vs soft cast bullet performance on game?

saskgunowner101

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I always see "hard cast" this and "hard cast" that for hunting, but what about soft lead bullets? If velocities are kept moderate, is there a distinct disadvantage?

I stumbled across what seems to be an accurate load in the 45-70 and 500 grain bullet, but the lead is basically 8 lb dead soft, 2 lb wheel weight kind of mix. I should be ballpark 1,300 fps or a bit higher.

If you ran same bullet, same speed, but one batch hard cast vs dead soft lead, what in real life hunting scenarios should be expected?
 
1300fps is getting towards top end for soft lead without paper patching. Leading is the issue if you push it much faster. If you use a hard cast at that speed, you will get no or little leading, and little or no expansion. IMO when you shoot a .458 bullet, expansion doesn't matter as much as it would with a smaller caliber, but at 1300fps hydrostatic shock would be limited anyway.
your 'accurate' bullet just might not be accurate with the hard cast either, as soft lead generally seals the bore better than hard. You can battle that by using over sized bullets.
What works in one rifle doesn't always work in another. Bullet hardness is something you can spend a lot of time playing with.
If all that sounds like there is no clear answer, I think that's where I was going.
IMO, if you are happy with 1300FPS, there is no real advantage in using a hard bullet for hunting.
Me, I use hard bullets in the 4570, at 1650fps, and soft in my 44-40 at 1300fps.
 
I forgot to mention that it's a gas check bullet (if that matters) I'm using. That might explain the no leading at all. With the 405 plain base cast, I've experienced them going to pot when I crank up the speed too much. But in this case bullet speed shouldn't be an issue.

How do you find the expansion and penetration of your soft cast bullet in game?
 
1300fps is getting towards top end for soft lead without paper patching. Leading is the issue if you push it much faster. If you use a hard cast at that speed, you will get no or little leading, and little or no expansion. IMO when you shoot a .458 bullet, expansion doesn't matter as much as it would with a smaller caliber, but at 1300fps hydrostatic shock would be limited anyway.
your 'accurate' bullet just might not be accurate with the hard cast either, as soft lead generally seals the bore better than hard. You can battle that by using over sized bullets.
What works in one rifle doesn't always work in another. Bullet hardness is something you can spend a lot of time playing with.
If all that sounds like there is no clear answer, I think that's where I was going.
IMO, if you are happy with 1300FPS, there is no real advantage in using a hard bullet for hunting.
Me, I use hard bullets in the 4570, at 1650fps, and soft in my 44-40 at 1300fps.

pretty much what I have found true. But I believe a lead bullet must expand I order to cause a larger wound channel and to cause
a better transfer of bullet energy to flesh. If a bullet is too hard it will go straight through with little shocking effect to the animal.
I use 8 lbs ww to 4lbs flashing with SPG lube. Pushing to just over 1400 fps. No leading. The key is to have a bullet that holds lots of lube. Being a black powder cartridge shooter I learned lube must be showing on the muzzle. The muzzle must be greasy to the touch. I find a harder bullet will lead up at lower velocity with black powder loads and iam find true with smokeless also. Most leading is caused by running out of lube before the bullet gets to the muzzle. My bullets are sized 1 thousand over groove. Cases partially sized. Sometimes it's a crapshoot to what works in each rifle. I have bullets that will not shoot in my original trapdoor but shoot very well in my H R Buffalo classic.
 
I'm using 13 BHN in a 1892 44-40 but haven't had the opportunity to feed one of the 220gr FN into game just yet.Starting out at .430 it really won't matter if it expands but it should plow + bust bone.
 
its a bit of a watch, perhaps if you're bored some time....... but I'm using a "hawksbury river" cast bullet from Australia, this is in 375winchester at .375 the bullet is specifically a "copper hawk"
they cast different hardness from clear coated, copper coated to black coated, I'm fairly sure the copper hawks were the mid ones but that's irrelevant, end of the Day it is a Hard Cast coated projectile
I shot that Sambar up the Ass basically---- travelled complete length and exited (.375 exit) and Deer ended up 15 yards away... so I don't think much expansion goin on LOL- they are travelling around 1850fps from the muzzle.

I'm yet to punch the shoulders of a Bigger Sambar deer yet but that's not far away at all..

I found the Hard Cast didn't act any different to the Hornady 220gr I preiously used, however the later can be fed up closer to the 2100fps bracket which the 375 will do.


I did a lot of reading an in one ear out the other stuff when I looked at the Cast game, cant remember if google or youtube held some info an pics/vids of softer cast bullets in use, some sort of test medium I believe.

I'm no more than a #### kicker when it comes to cast an using it etc, but IMO the closer to 2000 FPS the better for hunting with any bullet, an soft cast jus don't get there

WL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLBYKF6INmw
 
There is no doubt that soft cast will expand more than hard and hard will shoot better than soft.

To get the best of both worlds, I would take a long look at paper jacketed soft cast. Paul Mathews talks of shooting them at up to 2000 fps. I think my big game hunting days are limited but if I was going to get serious about it, soft cast with a paper jacket is the way I would go.
 
There is no doubt that soft cast will expand more than hard and hard will shoot better than soft.

To get the best of both worlds, I would take a long look at paper jacketed soft cast. Paul Mathews talks of shooting them at up to 2000 fps. I think my big game hunting days are limited but if I was going to get serious about it, soft cast with a paper jacket is the way I would go.
At lower velocities I've found soft bullets shoot better than hard, but that's my rifles. I don't use gas checks or gas check design bullets on soft bullet loads. They seal the bore better than hard, if they get bumped up by the charge, a gas check is unlikely to do that at lower pressures. There is some argument that black powder makes this happen even better than smokeless because of the spike pressure curve it has.
There is a lot of speculation in lead bullet shooting, what I, or you think is going on, is probably not the case.
The OP is using a 500 grain gas check soft bullet at 1300fps, that flies against what I thought would be accurate, yet it is. I speculate that the bullet weight is enough that even at 1300, pressures are enough to make the gas check do it's job.
I did a lot of playing with this years ago, I found for example that I could shoot Linotype bullets from my 30-30 at 1950fps, and they shot as well as the same bullet with a gas check. The same bullet, if made from straight wheel weight, would sometimes keyhole if it had no gas check. Put a gas check on both bullets, and you could not tell on the target which one you were using. In the end, I settled on straight wheel weight gas checked bullets, H4895 and 1950fps for deer hunting with cast Those bullets were not sized, they were shot as cast, and substantially over bore size (I had to test chamber my rounds to be sure they would enter the chamber). Penetration was never an issue, I never recovered a bullet. I suspect, that there was no expansion at all. Never lost a deer, but after some consideration, I moved the 30-30 back to Hornady Interlocks.
The 44-40's first deer was taken with a bulk bullet from Winchester, at 900fps. Distance was about 50ft. Complete penetration, one entry two exits. Never did really figure that out.
After that I went to soft lead cast bullets with a no gas check plain base design. I had a hell of a time with that model 92 getting it to shoot less than 12" groups unless I shot Jacketted at 900fps, so was really happy when the soft plain base shot 3" at 1300fps. (i'm skipping a lot here, I went through about five molds, and a lot of experimenting) It has a tight chamber, and that forced me to keep my bullets small, however they still shoot.
I've taken a few deer since with it, and one black bear. All under 50 yards. I only recovered one bullet, from the bear. It was deformed, mushroomed, but not a hell of a lot. Lung shot, hit no ribs, was under the hide on the off side. Bear was only 120lbs or so.
At that time, the '92 was a favorite, distances were very close, and it was vary light, perfect for me, as I love to walk.
The '92 hasn't been out much in the last few years, as I moved to a hunting area where distances were longer. That's changed again now, so she'll be out again.
Same can be said for my 1886 in 45-70, although it isn't nearly as fussy about what it shoots. It's a custom rifle I had made up, with a Douglas premium barrel. It will be a stand rifle though, too damned heavy for walking, or I'm too damned old to put up with it.
 
Another trick is wrapping soft bullets with teflon plumbers tape in the direction the rifling tightens the tape not shredding it.
 
Here I am on the left coast. Just getting gear, buying molds and a Rcbs furnace. Looks like I have to get some way to measure hardness.

My lead is a truckload of sailboat ballast/keel. There is also roof flashing, and oxidized fishing weights available.

What about soft cast that is PC?

The firearms are a JM Marlin GG, 7.62x39 bolt, and a 416 Rigby. For plinking a 9mm and 45acp PCC.
 
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I forgot to mention that it's a gas check bullet (if that matters) I'm using. That might explain the no leading at all. With the 405 plain base cast, I've experienced them going to pot when I crank up the speed too much. But in this case bullet speed shouldn't be an issue.

How do you find the expansion and penetration of your soft cast bullet in game?

I've experienced them going to pot when I crank up the speed too much. But in this case bullet speed shouldn't be an issue.

Bullet speed is a factor ... bullet length/shape is a factor ... Bullet RPM is a factor more so for cast than for jacketed

For example can you shoot 50g 223 at 600yds in a 7 twist barrel ....NO you can not. rpm too high
 
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