HARD EVIDENCE: Why the Soviet SKS45 NEVER saw action in WW2

B

Boris Badinov

CGN Regular
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Location
NorCal
The following is a CIA report dated 1955, which describes that even as late as 1954 the Soviets were taking the most extreme measures to safeguard the secrecy of the 7.62x39 round and the firearms for which it was designed. The 'new' firearms discussed in the report are the AK, SKS, and (apparently) the Stetchkin pistol.

Under the section heading "Seucrity Measures" the report explains how each rifle and every round of ammunition was meticulously accounted for -- with severe punishment resulting should any round go missing.

Given the very high level of security so many years after the end of WW2 as well as the Korean War, it seems pretty safe to say that the SKS did not see action in either conflict.



https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP82-00046R000500020007-7.pdf
 
Makes sense to me, it's the closing days of WW2 you have tons of stuff that works and you're going to win. Why risk your most recent prototype weapons becoming known to a potential future adversary?

Then come the Korean war, you've got huge amounts of WW1/2 era weaponry, you're re-arming your own forces with modern weaponry and their are more Chinese and Korean men aged 14 - 40 than you have small arms, so given one is more replaceable than the other and it's a localised war why bother letting your newer technology be tested when you can keep it for the European front?
 
Last edited:
Sure it didnt because SKS 43 was being field tested during battle of Berlin. Limited numbers got issued to combat troops and some got sent to officers school for range testing. It was select fire and looked slightly different. Thing did not perform as well as expected and Simonov
was told to improve the design. Pictures and some technical data is out there but unfortunately no samples survived IFAIK.
 
Last edited:
Here is one I found where its called SKS 31 but I have a black and white scan of an old soviet magazine somewhere at home where they call it SKS43. This guy they do have in the museum. Ill try to find once I get home from work. That’s the thing which saw action during 1945 so I dont see how SKS45 could have been using during WW2. https://www.kalashnikov.ru/sks-kotoryj-tak-i-ne-vstupil-v-boj/
 
Last edited:
I'm having a hard time believing they developed a new ammo and a new gun, they wouldn't test it out in real war condition.
 
They did, in 1945, during battle of Berlin, 42 rifles but it needed improvements. Those things looked slightly different than SKS45. By the time Simonov
Improved it and it became SKS45 as we all know it war was obviously over.
 
VuDu666 said:
They did, in 1945, during battle of Berlin, 42 rifles but it needed improvements. Those things looked slightly different than SKS45. By the time Simonov
Improved it and it became SKS45 as we all know it war was obviously over.
Click to expand...
Your evidence?

Extreme secrecy about both the new semi-auto rifle and the 39mm round makes it pretty clear that the Soviets weren't fielding either at the very end of a war they were already winning.

If you've got evidence to the contrary, feel free to share it.
 
Last edited:
Every SKS WW2 claim I've encountered has been devoid of documented proof.

My post concerns the SKS45 an 39mm round. However, the extreme secrecy suurrounding both the rifle and new round, suggests to me that earlier model designations or ammunition designs would have been safeguarded with similarly extreme zealousness.

If there is sourced evidence to the contrary-- other than long bandied heresay-- feel free to share it.
 
The difficulty Ruslan Chumak's detailed history is that the English translation, opens up some apparent contradictions. He states that-- for a 5-day period in August of 1944 that prototype rifles were used in combat operation but never tested in combat.

"The carbines were transferred to the personnel of the 2nd company of the 1083th rifle regiment on August 14, 1944. In the period from 08/14/1944 to 08/18/1944, the carbines were used in the unit's combat operations. There were no tests in combat conditions."
 
Last edited:
Horilka just posted a link where I posted a link a book by Bolotniy D.N where it says how many of 50 prototypes got sent where and it was decided they needed more work. Prototypes were predecessors of SKS45. Why would they be testing older prototypes which were later improved and became SKS45. In original post Horilka also posts pictures/info about those prototypes.
Boris Badinov said:
Your evidence?

Extreme secrecy about both the new semi-auto rifle and the 39mm round makes it pretty clear that the Soviets weren't fielding either at the very end of a war they were already winning.

If you've got evidence to the contrary, feel free to share it.
Click to expand...
 
VuDu666 said:
Horilka just posted a link where I posted a link a book by Bolotniy D.N where it says how many of 50 prototypes got sent where and it was decided they needed more work. Prototypes were predecessors of SKS45. Why would they be testing older prototypes which were later improved and became SKS45. In original post Horilka also posts pictures/info about those prototypes.
Click to expand...

From Horilka's link:

"the ([prototype] carbines were used in the unit's combat operations. There were no tests in combat conditions." ."

The suggestion here matches the extreme secrecy reported in 1954. A limited number of rifles, likely issued to rear echelon unit of the 1st Byelorussian Front. Under which set of conditions the secrecy of both the prototype rifle and the novel 7.62x39mm round could be maintained.
 
@VuDu666--

This is the detailed history by Ruslan Chumak that Horilka shares in his linked thread:

https://www.kalashnikov.ru/wp-content/cache/all/sks-kotoryj-tak-i-ne-vstupil-v-boj//index.html



If you follow the link and read the translated evaluations from the unit members themselves, it seems pretty clear that the prototype rifles were never fielded in live combat.

The various problems reported such as heavy recoil, very large concealment/cover compromising muzzle flash, and unreliable feed issues (stovepipes, and failure to extract or eject) indicate to me that these rifles were "field" tested-- almost literally in a field-- outside of combat and in a controlled environment far back from the front lines where the secrecy of the round and rifle could be maintained.
 
Last edited:
If I see 1st Belorussian front and think those guys were in combat all the time. Unless some units way back were doing the testing. I assumed they were doing it in combat. Central front was renamed into 1BF. 1BF went through Belarus, Poland and ended up on the outskirts of Berlin. These guys were very active throughout the war. Always on the front lines of major offensive operations.
 
I refer specifically to the link you mentioned.

Chumak's words are pretty clear:

"There were no tests in combat conditions"

The Unit was an artillery unit. Artillery units are positioned well behind front lines already for fire support. They may very well have been on R&R from combat duty. The test period was a mere five days- August 14th-18th, 1944.

There were numerous reliability issues reported by the unit: FTF, FTE, stovepipes, severe felt recoil, and massive muzzle flash. Every one of thise issues and more are the x
exact opposite of an effective front line battle rifle.

But i go back to Chumak's own words:
" there were no tests in combat conditions

This fits very succinctly with the high level of secrecy associated with both the round and the rifle nearly.a decade after the end of the war.
 
A closer reading of Chumak's detailed history reveals that they prototype rifles were, in fact issued to a rear unit of the 1st Belorussian Front:

"At the front , the SKS carbines were decided to be issued to troops of the 1st Belorussian Front in the units on the defensive..." -- not offensive troops.

Further first-hand reviews in the described in the Chumak article, led to the conclusion that that the rifles, given the numerous functional and reliability issues, were still unsatisfactory for use in combat conditions.
 
SKS was adopted for service in Soviet army in 1949 along with AK and RPD all at once. All 3 platforms were designed to use 7.62x39 cartridge. So SKS as we know it only appeared in 1949.
Its prototypes before adoption were tested until all bugs were ironed out in unimaginable conditions, some prototypes were also used in combat. Simonov himself visited front lines even as early as 1943.

One version of the SKS that has proven itself as reliable concept was pressed in antitank role.
So yes SKS did saw service in WW2 and was successful weapons platform only in bigger cartridge and bigger scale in form of PTRS.

However its obvious that 1949 production version as we all know it could not be seen on ww2 stage or even Korean conflict as there was none of them built at those times yet.
 
Wasn't there a pic posted here on CGN years ago with Russian troops herding a bunch of German prisoners and one of the Russians had some version of an SKS? I seem to recall that but it was a long time ago.
 
It makes zero sense to field a prototype into live combat that had as many flaws and reliability issues even as late as August of 1944.

First off, the risk of capture is a huge compromise of secrecy.

And the numerous functionaltiy and reliability issue further compound the risk of capture should a design or functionality flaw contribute to the death of the soldier testing it.

As well, spent casings would also compromise secrecy of the new 41mm prototype ammunition and the new rifle. As its not a common practice to go chasing spent casings in the middle a firefight.

Even as late as August 1944, late prototypes had far too many design and function flaws to be fielded in live combat. Chumak's detailed history of the sks states as much.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom