Head spaced not indexed
- Thread starter Bigbubba
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Make and model of rifle?
It could be something as simple as iron sights would not be top dead center. I have a Rem700 .30-06 assembled from parts from a variety of sources. If iron sights were installed, they would be a long ways from on top of the barrel. The rifle is scoped and is an excellent shooter. Five deer with 6 shots in the last three years.
It could be serious - extractor cuts might not be lined up, so rifle would not be operative. Or with something like a M-1 Garand, the barrel MUST be both headspaced and indexed. Otherwise the gas system cannot be installed.
So, it depends.
It could be something as simple as iron sights would not be top dead center. I have a Rem700 .30-06 assembled from parts from a variety of sources. If iron sights were installed, they would be a long ways from on top of the barrel. The rifle is scoped and is an excellent shooter. Five deer with 6 shots in the last three years.
It could be serious - extractor cuts might not be lined up, so rifle would not be operative. Or with something like a M-1 Garand, the barrel MUST be both headspaced and indexed. Otherwise the gas system cannot be installed.
So, it depends.
I assume this would be an issue with a barrel with sights, but if it doesn't have sights would it just be the markings on the barrel not being in the right place?
This was posted while I was replying to Tokay444. Thanks for the info.
Remington 660
Looks to be scoped and no irons
suther
Barrel marks are upside down against right side of stock
So looks like it could use another 1/2 rotation
If headspace and bolt nose to barrel breech face are correct, and if you don't want to use irons, the rifle should an acceptable shooter. Barrel stampings and plugged iron sight holes look odd when not properly located.
Indexing the barrel has to be done before headspace is set.
With something like a Remington, observe where the iron sight holes are - how many degrees are they out? Let's say 45 degrees. The barrel threads are 16 per inch. So, the shoulder and breech face would have to be adjusted by .0625 times 45 divided by 360. That doesn't take torque into consideration. Better to set the shoulder and face back a bit less, then adjust as necessary. Can take a bit of fiddling. Once indexing is correct, setting headspace will likely require reaming the chamber. If you have to pay someone to do this, it could be pricey.
Holes can be hidden by banded front and rear sights.
A 660 as described should certainly command a lower price than one correctly assembled.
Some folks would be really turned off by holes and markings that are out of place.
Indexing the barrel has to be done before headspace is set.
With something like a Remington, observe where the iron sight holes are - how many degrees are they out? Let's say 45 degrees. The barrel threads are 16 per inch. So, the shoulder and breech face would have to be adjusted by .0625 times 45 divided by 360. That doesn't take torque into consideration. Better to set the shoulder and face back a bit less, then adjust as necessary. Can take a bit of fiddling. Once indexing is correct, setting headspace will likely require reaming the chamber. If you have to pay someone to do this, it could be pricey.
Holes can be hidden by banded front and rear sights.
A 660 as described should certainly command a lower price than one correctly assembled.
Some folks would be really turned off by holes and markings that are out of place.
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I am not trained as gunsmith - what I have noticed - some barrels, like Mauser and other military, have index mark - spin on to match index mark on receiver and generally the sights are correct (enough), the ejector slot (if it has one) is correct and the headspace is usually within tolerances. As if that whole system set up for an armourer to have spare barrels with sights installed - spin on a "new" barrel, if the former barrel got bent - like in a fight. However - on several Remington 788 - as if the receiver and barrel were threaded and torqued on together - then the roll stamps, sights, and chamber was done - is very much a "crap shoot" about where the sights will be, where the roll stamps will be, if you unscrew a Rem 788 barrel from one receiver and try to spin on another Rem 788 receiver to headspace within spec. I have no clue how the Remington 660 was done - but in the end, you typically want headspace within spec, roll marks right way up and visible when in that stock, and the iron sights - or iron sight holes - to be Top Dead Centre on the barrel. I do not have any experience with other types of commercial guns, but from the several Rem 788 that I played with, I do not expect a take-off barrel to be spun onto another receiver to correct headspace, with the roll stamps readable AND the sights on top - without doing some adjusting - lathe work and/or "breeching washers" come to mind.
tiriaq is telling it to you in laymen's terms, with a realistic outcome.
If the maker's stamps, or cartridge ID stamps bother you, don't buy the rifle unless it's a very good deal.
If it does bother you and you've decided you just can't live with it but like the rifle, then the barrel has to be removed and the shoulder has to be set back after calculating how much needs to come off so everything will be back at the 12 o'clock position.
This will screw up the headspace, likely to the point the chamber will have to be chased enough to bring it back within spec.
This will cost a couple of hundred dollars by the time all is well.
I have a couple of different rifles with similar barrel issues. They're personal use firearms and they shoot very well as is. Soooo, because they're scoped and never did have iron sights or are d&t for them, I'm just going to leave well enough alone.
I don't care if the stamps are in the factory location as long as the rifle is shooting to my needs.
All good advice given here .... though I would question, why would anyone set the headspace on a barrel without indexing it correctly? I mean, it's already on the lathe.... I would suspect this is a home gunsmith re-barreling job and the head spacing is suspect - sight unseen. (the presence of a shim between the receiver and shoulder would be a big clue)
If I were to buy that rifle, I would budget it on the assumption that it is going to a smith to have it done correctly.
My point is, upside down markings are a probable sign of inattention or inability....
I have frequently set up rifles with take-off barrels.
Is the 660 the OP is looking at rebarreled with a take-off, or is it the original barrel that has been worked on? That needs to be determined.
It is not unusual for Remington barrels to headspace without adjustment. Not always, but often. Frequently headspace is correct.
R700 boltheads came in different lengths, so selective assembly could be done at the factory to achieve correct headspace without having to do any additional reaming. The sight holes and markings won't be indexed. I suspect those operations were performed after the barrel was installed.
The rifle the OP is considering may be one rebarreled with a take-off barrel. It would certainly be worth confirming that headspace and bolt nose clearance are acceptable. When a rifle has been worked on by an unknown party it is best to confirm that everything is OK. Incidentally, headspace can be perfect, but the rifle could be dangerous if the bolt nose clearance is excessive - you don't want too much cartridge case hanging out unsupported.
As far as swapping barrels is concerned, I have found Winchester top eject 94s to be remarkably consistent. They seem to screw on and torque up to index without adjustment. Put a barrel from a commemorative onto a 4 digit serial numbered receiver, and it went right on with extractor cut and sights top dead center.
Is the 660 the OP is looking at rebarreled with a take-off, or is it the original barrel that has been worked on? That needs to be determined.
It is not unusual for Remington barrels to headspace without adjustment. Not always, but often. Frequently headspace is correct.
R700 boltheads came in different lengths, so selective assembly could be done at the factory to achieve correct headspace without having to do any additional reaming. The sight holes and markings won't be indexed. I suspect those operations were performed after the barrel was installed.
The rifle the OP is considering may be one rebarreled with a take-off barrel. It would certainly be worth confirming that headspace and bolt nose clearance are acceptable. When a rifle has been worked on by an unknown party it is best to confirm that everything is OK. Incidentally, headspace can be perfect, but the rifle could be dangerous if the bolt nose clearance is excessive - you don't want too much cartridge case hanging out unsupported.
As far as swapping barrels is concerned, I have found Winchester top eject 94s to be remarkably consistent. They seem to screw on and torque up to index without adjustment. Put a barrel from a commemorative onto a 4 digit serial numbered receiver, and it went right on with extractor cut and sights top dead center.
That's just an assumption, why would it already be on the lathe????
I've taken more than one take-off barrel, spun it onto an action with the proper torque and checked the headspace. If it was OK, fine. Never went near the lathe.
It shouldn't cost much to check with gauges. Matter of minutes. Take the ejector out before gauging. You could do that to speed things up.
A lot depends on the asking price.
With a rifle like this, there are things to look for... Was the original barrel removed without harm to the receiver? Was the replacement barrel neatly installed with decent torque? Recoil lug indexed? Headspace and bolt nose clearance OK?
Was the take-off barrel in fine condition? Sometimes they are as new, sometimes they were problematic. Take-offs can be great bargains. They can also be tomato stakes.
Personally, I have had excellent results using take-offs. Of course, they are "factory" barrels, not customs, but they may shoot really well.
Bottom line is the price.
A lot depends on the asking price.
With a rifle like this, there are things to look for... Was the original barrel removed without harm to the receiver? Was the replacement barrel neatly installed with decent torque? Recoil lug indexed? Headspace and bolt nose clearance OK?
Was the take-off barrel in fine condition? Sometimes they are as new, sometimes they were problematic. Take-offs can be great bargains. They can also be tomato stakes.
Personally, I have had excellent results using take-offs. Of course, they are "factory" barrels, not customs, but they may shoot really well.
Bottom line is the price.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
"head spaced properly" - you are going to get some various opinions what that means. Some barrel makers / target shooters want head space at Minimum GO gauge length, or very close to that. Some of the same want it between GO Gauge and NOGO gauge. And SAAMI sets a MAXIMUM "safe" length at "FIELD" gauge length. Is something that you ought to know and understand, before paying someone to "check it". The most common misunderstanding that I see, is some think that NOGO is SAAMI Maximum - that is FIELD gauge, not NOGO.
Go here to see the SAAMI standards - they only list Minimum (GO) and Maximum (FIELD) dimensions. I have not been able to find where SAAMI defines a NOGO gauge - it might be a barrel maker or a gauge maker invention, not a SAAMI standard. https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf That link is to the centerfire rifle cartridge standard - is also similar standards at that site for rimfire, shotgun, etc.
Go here to see the SAAMI standards - they only list Minimum (GO) and Maximum (FIELD) dimensions. I have not been able to find where SAAMI defines a NOGO gauge - it might be a barrel maker or a gauge maker invention, not a SAAMI standard. https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf That link is to the centerfire rifle cartridge standard - is also similar standards at that site for rimfire, shotgun, etc.
I agree with Potashminer.
When I am installing a new barrel for my own use, I like to just feel the GO gauge on closing. Particularly if it is a range rifle for precision shooting. Minimal headspace. When done like this, the bolt will hardly begin to close on a NO GO.
If it is a hunting rifle, I'm satisfied if I can just barely feel the NO GO. A lot of used rifles will close on a NO GO. The NO GO is most useful when fitting a new barrel. It may not be relevant in a used hunting rifle. I would not use a rifle that accepts a FIELD gauge, unless there was something special about the rifle that made it worth preparing handloads for it, which are custom fit for that specific chamber.
I just found a bolt for a 788 .308 that had lost its bolt. I can just feel the NO GO on closing. I'm satisfied with that and would not hesitate to use factory ammunition.
There is a difference between SAAMI and CIP standards. I tried 6.5x55 SAAMI NO GO gauges in a lot of surplus Swedish Mausers. Never found one that would not accept the gauge freely. Only Nordic Mauser I found that would not take the NO GO was one of the Danish M98 based target rifles. I've never experienced a Swedish Mauser that had problems with SAAMI factory ammunition, notwithstanding having accepted the NO GO.
When I am installing a new barrel for my own use, I like to just feel the GO gauge on closing. Particularly if it is a range rifle for precision shooting. Minimal headspace. When done like this, the bolt will hardly begin to close on a NO GO.
If it is a hunting rifle, I'm satisfied if I can just barely feel the NO GO. A lot of used rifles will close on a NO GO. The NO GO is most useful when fitting a new barrel. It may not be relevant in a used hunting rifle. I would not use a rifle that accepts a FIELD gauge, unless there was something special about the rifle that made it worth preparing handloads for it, which are custom fit for that specific chamber.
I just found a bolt for a 788 .308 that had lost its bolt. I can just feel the NO GO on closing. I'm satisfied with that and would not hesitate to use factory ammunition.
There is a difference between SAAMI and CIP standards. I tried 6.5x55 SAAMI NO GO gauges in a lot of surplus Swedish Mausers. Never found one that would not accept the gauge freely. Only Nordic Mauser I found that would not take the NO GO was one of the Danish M98 based target rifles. I've never experienced a Swedish Mauser that had problems with SAAMI factory ammunition, notwithstanding having accepted the NO GO.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Tiriaq's example in Post #25 illustrates a very curious point - for some reason, SAAMI set their Minimum and Maximum dimensions for 6.5x55 LESS THAN what the Swede Regimental gauges are - and the Swedes were making and using 6.5x55 about 30 years before SAAMI existed. So brand new rifles from Carl Gustaf armoury would "fail" a headspace check, using SAAMI gauges, but were perfectly within spec if using Swede Regimental Armourer's gauges.
Nothing to do with competence. A lot to do with time, effort and cost. If iron sights are not to be used, and if the owner doesn't care about the esthetics of having the factory roll stamps oriented there may be no reason to index and recut the chamber. Incidentally, the reamer the gunsmith would use is not the one that cut the chamber, and if only a light finishing cut to correct headspace is taken, the factory chamber may not be cleaned up, and fired cases might look a bit odd, showing the demarcation between the original chamber and the freshly cut area.
Using a take-off barrel is an economy option which can be very successful.
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