Head spaced not indexed

[tiriaq]

If I'm reusing a take-off barrel for my own use, I don't bother with indexing unless there is a reason to do so.
Just got a set of rings for a Ruger 77 (tang safety) that I redid years ago. Going to put some rounds through it next season. I'd refinished the stock, recut the checkering, and had installed a .22-.250 varmint weight barrel from a Ruger No. 1. The barrel had lots of holes, including ones for bases for long external adjustment target scopes. So, I indexed it. Also recut the chamber to Ackley Improved. The rifle shoots like a house on fire. Great barrel, looks good.

 

[bearhunter]

No, hiring a gunsmith to make sure it’s really headspaced properly

If you reload, it doesn't matter much whether it headspaces properly.

Your cases will fireform to the dimensions of the chamber and you will set your dies accordingly.

If you only shoot factory ammo, there might be some concern, MIGHT.

We're only talking a couple of thousandths of an inch here. less than the thickness of a hair.

The rifle isn't dangerous to shoot. There is just way too much hullabaloo made over headspace.

IF that rifle is relatively cheap, and I wanted it for the cartridge it's chambered for, I would buy it.

That being said, if you just aren't comfortable with it, walk away.

 

[bearhunter]

Nothing to do with competence. A lot to do with time, effort and cost. If iron sights are not to be used, and if the owner doesn't care about the esthetics of having the factory roll stamps oriented there may be no reason to index and recut the chamber. Incidentally, the reamer the gunsmith would use is not the one that cut the chamber, and if only a light finishing cut to correct headspace is taken, the factory chamber may not be cleaned up, and fired cases might look a bit odd, showing the demarcation between the original chamber and the freshly cut area.
Using a take-off barrel is an economy option which can be very successful.

This /\ I've seen that happen before. If the barrel is going onto the lathe to have the shoulder set back for proper indexing, the whole thing starts over from scratch, other than threading. That's when it gets expensive, and if the smith is lazy or unknowledgeable this is where mistakes happen.

 

[tiriaq]

If you reload, it doesn't matter much whether it headspaces properly.

Your cases will fireform to the dimensions of the chamber and you will set your dies accordingly.

If you only shoot factory ammo, there might be some concern, MIGHT.

We're only talking a couple of thousandths of an inch here. less than the thickness of a hair.

The rifle isn't dangerous to shoot. There is just way too much hullabaloo made over headspace.

IF that rifle is relatively cheap, and I wanted it for the cartridge it's chambered for, I would buy it.

That being said, if you just aren't comfortable with it, walk away.

I used to correspond with the late Bob Greenleaf, the engineer at Savage who designed the post-Brewer version of the 110.
He experimented once with a 110 in .30-06, controlled firing in their test facility. Started with the rifle is as manufactured condition, then kept unscrewing the barrel and firing it until there was so much excess headspace that the firing pin could not reach the primer. Of course he was using fresh factory ammunition, but ever round fired normally, and there were no case separations. As long as the extractor was holding the round the rifle would fire without issue or mishap. This is not to say that sloppy headspace should be accepted or ignored, but it isn't necessarily the bogeyman it is sometimes made out to be.

 

[Mystic Precision]

When a rifle is advertised as having a replacement barrel that is head spaced but not indexed; what exactly does this mean and is it an important issue for the next buyer?

Thank you

here is a practical example... many shooters are now embracing prefit match barrels which headspace using a barrel nut ala Savage. Often, the barrel manf will put the chamber details on the barrel BUT since this is being installed on a 'random' action, there is no way to know how the barrel will clock/orientate once the headspace is set.

The markings could be anywhere and has approx 270degrees to be in a spot where is it 'correct' or not visible. Sometimes, it is visible but upside down.. 'wrong quadrant'.

Does it affect performance? nope. could someone have a concern wrt to appearance, yep... but that is just the nature of the beast.

Jerry

 

[Jonnyofalltrades]

Take-off barrels are lots of fun to mess with on the cheap.
No need to buy a stupid expensive reamer that you're going to use once(or try to rent, shudder).
A headspace gauge is super economical, and often will cover many chamberings. All that is needed is either a light cut on the shoulder, or maybe a shim made up to get headspace correct.
Yes, barrel markings will be in a random spot. I try to get them hidden by the forend, and do my own stamping. Incompetence? Inattention to detail? Absolutely not.
Consider that if a person was to buy a good blank, reamer, and headspace gauges, you could easily be close to a grand.
The last take off I installed cost me nothing. I was gifted an unfired barrel, already had a gauge. Just needed a little bit of machining, and no reamer!

 

[JJ-65]

Take-off barrels are lots of fun to mess with on the cheap.
No need to buy a stupid expensive reamer that you're going to use once(or try to rent, shudder).
A headspace gauge is super economical, and often will cover many chamberings. All that is needed is either a light cut on the shoulder, or maybe a shim made up to get headspace correct.
Yes, barrel markings will be in a random spot. I try to get them hidden by the forend, and do my own stamping. Incompetence? Inattention to detail? Absolutely not.
Consider that if a person was to buy a good blank, reamer, and headspace gauges, you could easily be close to a grand.
The last take off I installed cost me nothing. I was gifted an unfired barrel, already had a gauge. Just needed a little bit of machining, and no reamer!

AMEN.
Much like a one night stand. How much $$$$ do ya wanna spend on something that you are only fire a few loads thru before moving on.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

All good advice given here .... though I would question, why would anyone set the headspace on a barrel without indexing it correctly? I mean, it's already on the lathe.... I would suspect this is a home gunsmith re-barreling job and the head spacing is suspect - sight unseen. (the presence of a shim between the receiver and shoulder would be a big clue)

If I were to buy that rifle, I would budget it on the assumption that it is going to a smith to have it done correctly.

My point is, upside down markings are a probable sign of inattention or inability....

WTF are you talking about?

IF the barrel screws in and headspace correctly, THAT is the only important thing. Where the stupid markings end up is completely irrelevant and has NOTHING to do with inattention or ability.

Indexing the barrel and then correcting the headspace requires setting the barrel up in the lathe and cutting the chamber deeper ... to a very fine dimension. Headspace is a 0.004" range. This means the smith has to have the correct reamer and do a bunch of extra, finicky work. All that costs money, typically several hundreds of dollars. All to make your precious markings look right.

You have the whole shim thing completely backwards. A barrel not indexed but correctly headspace would never need a shim. Only a smith cutting corners would try to index and headspace via a shim.

Wouldn't a competent gunsmith have set the barrel back for proper index before setting headspace?
Who installed the barrel?

Do you understand how headspace is altered? Your comment suggests you do not.

 

[bearhunter]

I used to correspond with the late Bob Greenleaf, the engineer at Savage who designed the post-Brewer version of the 110.
He experimented once with a 110 in .30-06, controlled firing in their test facility. Started with the rifle is as manufactured condition, then kept unscrewing the barrel and firing it until there was so much excess headspace that the firing pin could not reach the primer. Of course he was using fresh factory ammunition, but ever round fired normally, and there were no case separations. As long as the extractor was holding the round the rifle would fire without issue or mishap. This is not to say that sloppy headspace should be accepted or ignored, but it isn't necessarily the bogeyman it is sometimes made out to be.

I agree with what you've written, only to add that anyone who has fireformed cases for a custom chamber, such as an Acley Improved, with factory ammo, does this regularly, without issues.

With actions like the Rem 700, it's got the double ring of safety as well.

Anyone that handloads takes headspace into account by neck sizing and only partially resizing the case body by setting back the shoulder a thou o two.

 

[Buckmastr]

Just a few years ago, you couldn’t swing a dead cat and not hit a dozen Remington take offs on the EE. They have almost all dried up now.

I’ve been searching for a lowly slow twist 223 Rem varmint barrel for a year. Not a sniff. I know that the 150$ I’d spend would get me just as far a 700$ custom. Whether it indexes or not means little to my projects. Though controversial when I sell them, they all seem to shoot just fine.

 

[tiriaq]

It wasn't unusual for a new or perfectly good R700 to be purchased to be broken for its action, or to have a custom barrel installed. The barrel and stock would be sold to offset the cost. The varmint twist barrels got replaced with quick twist ones for long range shooting with heavy VLDs. These barrels were often great bargains. Traditional 700s haven't been made for a while, and the new production version isn't widely available yet, and is certainly more expensive.

 

[Leeper]

Pre-64 Winchester rifles would almost always index correctly. This was due to the method of manufacture. In fact, a barrel from a model 54 will usually index perfectly on a Model 70. This is not the case with post-64 rifles. Headspace will be fine but index is a crapshoot.
Having a barrel which does not index with the sights on top has nothing to do with competence; it has to do with what the 'smith is asked to do. Chances are, he was asked to screw the barrel on and check the headspace and he did so.

 

[legi0n]

... Of course he was using fresh factory ammunition, but ever round fired normally, and there were no case separations. As long as the extractor was holding the round the rifle would fire without issue or mishap. This is not to say that sloppy headspace should be accepted or ignored, but it isn't necessarily the bogeyman it is sometimes made out to be.

try reloading that brass 2 times then shoot it using the same increased headspace and report back
head separation is real and it is a function of headspace and brass brittleness

 

[Evanguy]

try reloading that brass 2 times then shoot it using the same increased headspace and report back
head separation is real and it is a function of headspace and brass brittleness

The brass would last the same..just push the shoulder back 0.002 and then you have perfect headspace for the rest of the firings. It's only wrong head space the first time the case is fired.

 

[guntech]

The first time an undersized case is fired in a chamber with excessive headspace the resulting fired case will have stretched considerably and will have a very weakened 'ring' somewhere at the rear of the case, usually just ahead of the heavy web of the case. That case will always be very weak and quite easily succumb to a case separation.

Correct barrel to bolt gap and correct headspace is important for the longevity of brass and the safety of the shooter.