Help identifying "Japanese" marks on M1917 Enfield - pictures of full rifle added

[stickhunter]

Please see my updated message about this rifle: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...es-of-full-rifle-added.2480541/#post-20404027

I have a US Rifle Model of 1917 rifle made by Remington. There are a pair of stamps on top of the left receiver rail that I'd like to identify - to my eye, they look light stylized dragons or serpents:

The stock itself has a C Broad Arrow and, I'm supposing, a unit marking:

I don't know at this point if the stock is mismatched to the rifle, so I'm really just beginning to dig into it a bit. I will try to get some better pictures in the upcoming days as weather permits.

Addendum: I did find this post, which mentions the "31 TC" marking may be in reference to a Canadian Army training center: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=71661

One of my Canadian issued M1917s also has a similar number stamped into the butt - 31 TC over 616 along with a C broad arrow.

I Think TC is Trainig Centre (Army). No. 12 and No. 31 are both in Ontario.

 

[Potashminer]

I have not seen those stamps previously - I would presume some military ownership mark? As far as stock - maybe some history might help? Apparently all M1917 (Model of 1917, P-17) were made in WWI by Winchester, Eddystone and Remington factories in USA for USA military. Bolt handles were NOT marked with rifle serial number then. After WWI they were "stored" in USA - some suffered a lot of damage - rust, water, etc. - was multiple "arsenals" set up in various States at start of WWII to "re-condition" those WWI rifles for use - I have one that was done at Augusta Arsenal, in Georgia, USA. Was several WWII contractors used to supply parts - so this one has an Eddystone made receiver, but a "High Standard" made barrel.

During WWII, Canada "acquired" (bought? was given?) like 50,000 of those rifles from USA. I understand they were used mostly within Canada - Home Guard, RCAF base guards - I do not think any went Overseas with Canadian troops during WWII. When received, Canadian Armourers got busy and stamped rifle serial number to bolt handles that had been "fitted" to that particular receiver - USA never did that to any of their bolt action rifles, of various types. I believe after WWII, about everyone in the world was selling off or giving away their bolt action rifles - I think they all wanted their soldiers with semi-auto rifles - but many third world and other countries quite happy with bolt action rifles of any sort - I recently read that the WWI P17 was the preferred rifle for patrols done by Danish Sledge Patrols on Greenland - as of a few years ago.

My Dad "did up" a surplus P17 - at his farm in Saskatchewan bush in 1948 - was likely "cheap" to acquire - even in middle of no-where. I do not think any P14 (303 British) or P17 (30-06) were ever made after 1918 - although some might have been assembled from parts that were produced during WWI.

 

[Dosing]

The top stampings are partials, I cant recall the whole stamp, but its missing a good part of it.

 

[stickhunter]

The top stampings are partials, I cant recall the whole stamp, but its missing a good part of it.

Thanks for the lead on that Dosing --- I hadn't even been considering that the stamps might be partial because in my initial observation, they seemed to be well-struck and deep. However, I found this image of a 1917's left rail, and now I do wonder if the marks I have are the remnants of those eagles (unfortunately, in the same picture, those eagles are missing perhaps the pieces that I have)?

And here's a slightly better picture of my markings:

 

[stickhunter]

Here's a bit of a backstory on my questions... I purchased a US Rifle Model 1917 (Remington made) from a dealer that was advertised as:

... Bolt action rifle in original military configuration. Uncommon 22" barrel for Japanese use with good shiny bore...Very good arsenal metal finish... Japanese and US flaming bomb marked receiver...

The short barrel and Japanese (or I thought perhaps Chinese) markings made me think this rifle may have been one of the carbines described in https://americansocietyofarmscollec...-M1917-carbine-mystery-solved-Albert-v121.pdf and https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp...dystone-short-rifle-china-burma-india-theater:

Here are pictures of the rifle as received (click the gallery link for a full sequence of photos):

https://imgur.com/a/t1occEd

A few things to note:

1. The Canadian-marked stock has an LOP of ~13.5" and with the rack stamp at the toe, I don't believe it's been shortened.
2. The bolt is stamped with a number that does not match the receiver, and is E marked, so I believe a mismatched Eddystone?
3. There are no additional stamped numbers as indicated in the article, in particular the floorplate is unmarked.
4. The blueing on the barrel is significantly brighter/stronger than the barrel bands.
5. There is no indication of fresh cuts on the handguards - the finish on the ends looks appropriately aged, although there is a visible seam for a wood plug that would presumably have been used to finish off the shortened end of the forearm.
6. There are no clear markings that appear (to me) to be Japanese.

While I would love to believe this is a pseudo-official shortened 1917, I know best to buy the rifle and not the story, and my instincts are telling me that this is likely a desporterized 1917 in a Canadian stock, or was a mismatched full-length 1917 that someone shortened. In either event, it's very well-done.

I've contacted the retailer, who is trying to find more providence, but their statement about the Japanese receiver markings was in reference to what you see on the top-left rail, which Dosing pointed out could very well be worn or mis-struck stamps.

Since I may be returning the rifle, I don't want to disassemble the stock to take a closer look for additional markings.

That being said, I have mixed feelings too --- the cosmoline residue around the front sight probably wouldn't be present if someone had shortened the barrel and reattached the sight themselves. Additionally, under magnification, those left-side stamps still seem quite deep and not washed/wiped out -- they're also pretty much identical to each other. I've yet to find a good enough picture of US Eagle acceptance marks to see if those (partially) line up.

Based on the pictures, I'm wondering if anyone sees something that I don't? Would the consensus be that this is a one-off personal project of someone's... or something else?

 

[ArmedGinger]

If it's a true M1917 Carbine, the overall length should be 41". That be one place to start.

A number of these Carbine rifles were given to a group of Chinese called "X-Force" who were under the command of an American.

 

[Claven2]

It's difficult to say "never" when it comes to some milsurps. Some thoughts:

1. those are off-center struck eagles, you are seeing the very left side of the stamp. Either the worked stamping them held the stamps crooked, or they were partially buffed off at a refurb at some point. Personally I think they were struck off center.

2. The mismatched bolt is interesting. Are you sure it's an M1917 bolt? Is there a flaming bomb or eagle stamped on the bolt body? If there are crossed flags or other commonwealth proofs, it might be a P14 bolt in an M1917 action. The vast majority of M1917 bolts were not numbered.

3. The "machining" of the barrel at the muzzle to fit the sight further back on the barrel is rough - like it was spun in a lathe and a file was used to cut the metal or something. Remington would have finished the muzzle to the same finish as the rest of the barrel - this item was definitely converted later in its life.

4. If it was done for the US, they would have applied a proof mark on the barrel and a date, just behind the front sight. I don't see that here, so not a US-done mod, in my view. They were kinda anal about that stuff.

No idea how much you have in it, but I like it - it looks really handy. If you can't find any evidence it's legit though, it's likely someone's modification from who knows when, and lessens the value of the gun.

 

[ArmedGinger]

It's difficult to say "never" when it comes to some milsurps. Some thoughts:

1. those are off-center struck eagles, you are seeing the very left side of the stamp. Either the worked stamping them held the stamps crooked, or they were partially buffed off at a refurb at some point. Personally I think they were struck off center.

2. The mismatched bolt is interesting. Are you sure it's an M1917 bolt? Is there a flaming bomb or eagle stamped on the bolt body? If there are crossed flags or other commonwealth proofs, it might be a P14 bolt in an M1917 action. The vast majority of M1917 bolts were not numbered.

3. The "machining" of the barrel at the muzzle to fit the sight further back on the barrel is rough - like it was spun in a lathe and a file was used to cut the metal or something. Remington would have finished the muzzle to the same finish as the rest of the barrel - this item was definitely converted later in its life.

4. If it was done for the US, they would have applied a proof mark on the barrel and a date, just behind the front sight. I don't see that here, so not a US-done mod, in my view. They were kinda anal about that stuff.

No idea how much you have in it, but I like it - it looks really handy. If you can't find any evidence it's legit though, it's likely someone's modification from who knows when, and lessens the value of the gun.

No one really knows who did the modifications for the Chinese Carbines, only that it was done after the Chinese were issued the rifles. So it necessarily wasn't done at any factory. After WWII they were still used by the Chinese right up into the Korean War.

I have heard that supposedly the front sight and buttplate would have had serial numbers stamped into them after the modifications were done but haven't seen any proof of that.

 

[R711]

Didn’t the American Army in the Canal Zone, cut down a bunch of Springfeilds and 1917s as a trial on the effectiveness of short barrel aka Carbines vs regular length barrels in a jungle environment. They discuss this in the Springfeild bible.

 

[thespen]

Interesting to see this pop up here. I have inspected and handled this rifle myself. After some research I decided to pass on buying it. In my opinion, it is not an X-Force Chinese carbine as the markings preclude that time wise. It is also missing a few of the notable factors. While it is possible the stock was swapped, the X-Force rifles have Ishapore markings from when the conversion was done. All the X-Force carbines were modified by the Ishapore factory in India. As I recall after some measurements, the overall length is correct for an X-Force rifle. The buttstock on that rifle was shortened a hair, but not as much as the actual X-Force rifles. The barrel was cut back slightly more to compensate for that and maintain the same overall as the X-Force length. If the stock was replaced, I don't think it would have been cut down a bit again to the exact length unless the attempt was to replicate the X-Force carbine. There are also remnants of a possible C broad arrow stamp on the side of the receiver, again struck off center like the inspector marks so it's not really legible. Canada got these rifles in the same time period as the ones shipped to Indian for X-Force conversion. It could obviously not be in two places at once.
All that being said, I probably would have bought the gun anyways if not for the front sight being canted. It felt great, handled amazingly, the counterbore on it looks clean, but that canted sight bugged me too much lol. My opinion is that it's a Canadian purchase M1917 that was used by a training center during WWII. After that someone acquired it, noticed the bore was shot out, and decided to cut it down. With the exception of the sight cant, it is a fantastic job. It should shoot great.