Help Idientify an old SxS hammer gun

diemaco

CGN frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
61   0   0
Location
Ottawa
My great uncle was given this shotgun by a friend who was "older than time". He has no idea what it is, or what loads would be safe to shoot out of it if any. I know nothing about these classy guns, but it seems reasonably well made and would make a nice grouse gun. Any information would be great (gauge, shell length, maker, approx age, etc). I apologize for the crappy pictures, all I had was my phone.


IMG_20121111_1910181.jpg

IMG_20121111_1910591.jpg



Other markings include:
acier de surete
Bondin
Le Havre
Choke Rectifie (modified choke I believe)
St Etienne
 
I can't see any proofs on it but with the metric designation of 12 guage (18.8 mm) it is european and not british. My guess would be belgian. Somewhere on either the water table or the breach end of the barrels which mates with it, you will probably find an oval with *ELG inside. If there is a crown over the oval, the gun was made after 1893. You may also find a stamp like a miniature Eiffel Tower (peron) and a stamp like a double english pound sign. Both are belgian view marks.
Belgium made a lot of economy guns and I am guessing it is one of them

cheers mooncoon
 
St-Etienne is in France, it's the home of Verney-Carron, one of the world famous gunmaker and France's largest one.
Belgian manufacture would have Liege proof marks on it. Any picture of the whole gun? and / or better pics of the stampings (less light) ?.
I'll try to work from the actual pics, but they're not very clear...
 
I think it is French.

St Etienne is a town or city in France, so is Le Havre. St Etienne is also a proofhouse and a military armoury.
The shotgun may possibly be a Manufrance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufrance
Manufrance was based in St Etienne. They are a fairly well known retailer of good quality SxS shotguns.

"acier du surete" refers to the barrel - "safety steel" would be the english equivalent, which I think means it is fluid steel (as opposed to damascus).
Fluid steel barrels would make it quite shootable with proper ammo if it is in decent shape.

The french made some very good shotguns at that time, and there is some chance this one could be one of the better ones but it would take better pictures to say anything for certain.

Edited to add: I googled "Manufrance shotguns" and found some pictures which look to be very similar mechanically to your pictures. http://www.gournetusa.com/Ideal.htm

Manufrance shotguns can be quite collectible, if that is what this one is.
 
Last edited:
The "maker's name" (at least, the packager or distributor's name) is either Bondin or even Boudin, as both are current names. Parts of this gun may have been made at Manufrance, but not the whole gun, as the "Bondin" name is not one of their trade names. Like previously stipulated, there was a "guild" there who used parts made by others to assemble shotguns.

I can say without great doubts this gun was made between 1900 and 1923 and was proofed with black powder at 14 223 PSI. There may also be somewhere a "Crown" over PT for smokeless powder - now visible on your new pictures, of course if it was intended to use with it (mandatory from 1900).
Also from you pictures, it should be in 12 Gauge 2 1/2" (18.2 / 6.5). If a folded 3.5' shell does not fully chamber, protruding about 1/2" out of the chamber then it's still a 2 1/2" chamber (If you try that, be smart and do not attempt to close the action and fire the ammo...). "Choke Rectifié" means "calibrated" choke, "Portée Garantie" means it"s a "long distance" gun, the chokes being 18.2mm (0.716").

I can't read the words in a arc, but usually it relates to the steel.

The "Acier de Surete" stamp is the equivalent to "Fluid Steel" which means it's not a damascene barrel.
St-Étienne area made good quality shotguns, much better than low end Belgium ones.

If the hinge is stiff and the action closes tightly, that would make a very nice usueable gun for flushing grouse hunting.
 
Last edited:
I think Baribal pretty well nailed it. Manufrance was a large mailorder company like Simpson Sears or Eatons used to be. Manufrance didn't make shotguns. All their shotguns were made by other manufacturers. Possibly whoever made this shotgun was also supplying shotguns or components for Manufrance. That's just a wild guess - I was only commenting on the striking similarities in the mechanism and bottom view of the receiver.

It is a classic French hammer gun and that means the quality and workmanship are most probably several steps above most Belgian products of the era. I'd be quite happy to own it.
 
Manufrance sold a lot of guns through the mail. Some guns may have been made by others for them but as far as I know, they did make guns as well and some were very high quality and heavily engraved.
 
Manufrance sold a lot of guns through the mail. Some guns may have been made by others for them but as far as I know, they did make guns as well and some were very high quality and heavily engraved.

Everything I"ve seen says Manufrace did not make their own firearms. I not categorically saying you are wrong but I would be interested in knowing your source for saying Manufrance made shotguns.
 
There is a French gun forum where they discuss French guns. It is GournetUsa. They discuss Manufrance guns many times. Below is just a short blurb I dug up in the archives from that site that relates to what we are talking about. It was also mentioned that they did a lot of their own in-house engraving.



"I have to stop thinking about Manufrance as gun maker"?????



What do you mean?

I consider Manufacture Francaise a gun maker.
They design their own guns and make then "inhouse" for most of their time.
You can see in one film that the guns were fit by hand with smoke, the classic stile.

I was joking....


IMHO the fall of Manufrance was a deadly mix of burocracy + syndicalism + ideologization.
If not for the 1937 strike, the employees should have inherited the Manufacture.
Mimard at his death give 50% to the St Etienne comune. The burocratic directory could not adapt the Manufacture to changes in the world.
Undoubtly Etienne Mimar was the center piece of Manufacture Francaise.
By the way: the name change to Manufrance in 1948, four years after Mimars death, thats why I much preffer Manufacure Francaise dArmes et Cycles
 
Manufrance was a large mailorder company like Simpson Sears or Eatons used to be. Manufrance didn't make shotguns. All their shotguns were made by other manufacturers.

They weren't at all like Sears or Eatons. They were not a retailer only. They were a manufacturing concern that sold it's own products.

The original name from which Manufrance is derived is Manufacure Francaise DÁrmes et Cycles. I'm sure you can figure out what that means in English. I have seen factory photographs. Factory, not warehouse or sales office.

One of the most obvious indications they made they own guns is the utter uniqueness of their designs. Another is that there was no other gun maker in France capable of turning out the annual volume of guns Manufrance retailed.
 
Everything I've seen says Manufrance did not make their own firearms. I not categorically saying you are wrong but I would be interested in knowing your source for saying Manufrance made shotguns.

Gunsaholic and I talk regularly about old guns. I have spoken directly with Peter Mikalajunas, a contributor to Double Gun Journal and recognized authority of Belgian and French guns as well as the process of making Damascus barrels. Additionally I have been in contact with Jean-Claude Mournetas, author of several volumes regarding the guns of Manufrance and an expert in the guns and makers of Saint Etienne. I own and have read his book " Le Fusil de Chasse Ideal" Both have referenced Manufrance as a manufacturer of firearms, including specialized weaponry produced for the French Army.

I also own one of the "very high quality and heavily engraved" Manufrance Ideal guns Gunsaholic referred to.
MFReceiverLeftSideActionBrokenCloseup.jpg
 
Back
Top Bottom