help me identify this webley ric?

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krprice84

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Just saw this webley ric and I'm certain of its antique status based on everything I know, and based on the word of the guy who showed it to me, who is a gunsmith and comes highly recommended to me, and who deals in antiques regularly.

I'm just trying to find out more info about it, as it appears that at some point in it's life, someone took a grinder or polisher to it, as the typical webley marks are not there near the cylinder. In fact, there are hardly any markings on it at all. I can't even see a serial number!

First, does an antique have to have one to be ok? I'm pretty sure they don't so long as it can be otherwise shown it is antique, right?

Here is a photo of it, and I can post better photos of anything anyone else wants to see.

On the barrel, on top, is engraved what looks to be " HJ WIDSON BIRMINGHAM" and from what I recall that is the only major marking. There are two smaller ones, one on the cylinder one on the gate side of the frame, very small, I think they were an N or an A with a star above it. Then on the back strap there is the name of the bank which employed the armed guard who owned/was issued this gun. Any help would be greatly appreciated. If I can find out more I'd be very happy!

Photo isn't working right now but will post it shortly. The cylinder is not fluted and, to me, this suggests it is before 1883 (possibly after 1879?). The ejector rod has the acorn shaped end. The grip has the hump on it. The only thing I can't seem to figure out is, most pictures of the ric show a small triangular protrusion behind the trigger, mine has none there.

Thanks!
 
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I may be mistaken, and it would need better detailed non fuzzy closeups, but I think that is a Belgian made copy of a Webley! Rifling is very much unlike webley type and very much like what I have seen on Belgian revolvers and from what I can see (1893 liege proof) it appears to be antique status!
 
What would you want photos of? I can try to take better ones and/or describe what certain things look like.

Come to think of it, it was described by me as a Belgian copy, that's right!

Were these only made until 1893 then? Do you have any other info on then at all? Model or anything? What would the HJ Widson Birmingham mean on it?
 
krprice84 said:
What would you want photos of? I can try to take better ones and/or describe what certain things look like.

Come to think of it, it was described by me as a Belgian copy, that's right!

Were these only made until 1893 then? Do you have any other info on then at all? Model or anything? What would the HJ Widson Birmingham mean on it?
Click to expand...

Take a clear detailed close up of the rear of the cylinder so we can see all the markings, and close ups of all other markings. It appears to be a Belgian made copy of a Webley design revolver made for the British market on contract to a British gun dealer of the day. This was a very common practise back then.

If the proof mark shows clearly as the pre 1893 Belgian proof then yes you have a antique status revolver.

HJ Widson Birmingham was the gun dealer who it was made for, he operated a small gunshop in Birmingham in the mid to late 1800's
 
I can see the pre 1893 Belgian proof mark on the rear of the cylinder in them not so good pictures.
The gun is antique so no worries there but its a belgian made gun.
Made before 1893 .
ELG inside and oval (with no crown on top) on revolvers is pre 1893
 
More pics, better pics, all of the markings on it are in these pics:

This pic shows a capital N with a star above it, and then clockwise of that is an oval, clocked at about 1 o'clock, with a capital E on top and a capital L below the E and left and a capital G below the E and right.

IMG_20140409_184838_zpsio87h2jc.jpg


This shows "HJ WIDSON BIRMINGHAM" on the top of the barrel

IMG_20140409_183200_zpsejg7m5is.jpg


This one shows the "BRITISH CONSTABULARY" marking on the top strap

IMG_20140409_183211_zpsyxzkt2gk.jpg


This shows some stamps on the inside of where grip goes, on the non-gate side. One shows "PF" and is stamped in line laterally with the shape of the bar, and then above that is what looks like "IM" stamped perpendicular to the other one (I first thought this one said "171" but upon closer inspection I'm quite sure it is IM)

IMG_20140409_183317_zpsvh31cel9.jpg


This one is on the frame, on the side, in between the cylinder and barrel, on the gate side. It matches one of the marks on the cylinder and shows "N" with a star above it
IMG_20140409_183353_zps4cjv1p5d.jpg


Finally this photo shows the back strap and on it says "B D & D BANK" this one has a really nice cursive font
IMG_20140409_190513_zpsefvq8z4g.jpg


Hope those help, I'd really like to know as much as I can about this. The RCMP letter should be with it shortly here, as I'm sure that it is an antique and the unknown person who owns it says he plans on enjoying it :) he may also have a box of Fiocchi along with a box of fired brass, two more boxes if fired brass on the way, and two more boxes of loaded cartridges on the way :)
 
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Thanks Dingus! I appreciate you chiming in here! Like I said above, I know/knew it was antique as I trust the person who owned this gun before the current owner, but I just would love to know as much as I can about it.

Thanks for the help so far guys, and any more info would be just gravy!
 
Well as I mentioned earlier it is a Belgian made and proofed pre 1893 gun.

It was made by PIRLOT and FRESART (a reasonably well known medium sized Belgian gun maker of the period) and was made between 1879 and 1890.

The * over N is the inspectors private mark.

Hope this answers your questions.
 
Also I forgot to mention that the previous owner was the Birmingham D&D bank, a long gone, one of the many local banks that catered to the different trades and business in the then thriving industry town of Birmingham. Neat revolver, should be fun to own and shoot!
 
Cool!! Thank you so much!

Last question.... What would I supply as proof of this being an antique? Are the proof marks enough or does it need a reference to some sort of published article stating it is older than 98?
 
All you have that shows anything that the RCMP will accept is the pre 1893 proof stamp, there is no published reference material on your revolver that I am aware of.
 
Yea I've been looking everywhere and the reason I asked is there seems to be two sites that said this proof mark was for a bp rifle before 1893 then others which said certain types of pistols as well as rifles and shotguns. I'm leaning towards thinking that they would have proofed all sorts of firearms at that place so it makes sense it would have been used on all of them.

Finally, where can I find something that's trust worthy that I can print out with me to have when I have this thing on me or when I'm out shooting it. I don't want to risk any trouble so I want to make sure my bases are covered.

Obviously a copy of the law and the regs surrounding antiques, but I also need something that shows this particular gun falls under those regs.

Thanks again for all of the help!
 
So from what I've found, I do need to have some sort of published works, like a photo or photocopy of a page out of a published book, that shows the proof mark and/or other info about this gun, in order to prove I am carrying/shooting am antique and not a restricted gun. Can anyone help me with that photo/scan? I wouldn't even know what book to start with, but I'd really appreciate one of you pro's being able to help me out! Thanks for all the help so far! You guys are great!
 
Trying to resurrect for information, is the fiocchi 455 safe to shoot in these belgian RICs? I have heard tons of hearsay on this and want to hear from someone who has actually used this ammo in one of these guns, as opposed to someone making assumptions
 
I've shot 250 rounds through one with no issues AT ALL. the claimed velocity of the Fiocchi ammo is high by the way. I also fired at least 300 hand loads using both bullseye and unique powder getting velocity slightly exceeding the factory Fiocchi with absolutely zero issues or problems. I wouldn't worry one bit about shooting the Fiocchi stuff through your gun. Some people are afraid to, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it in my opinion.
 
responsible_gun_owner said:
Trying to resurrect for information, is the fiocchi 455 safe to shoot in these belgian RICs? I have heard tons of hearsay on this and want to hear from someone who has actually used this ammo in one of these guns, as opposed to someone making assumptions
Click to expand...

These Belgian Webley RIC clones were all proofed at the factory and then at the government proof house before sale and are generally quite safe to shoot with ammo loaded to the same pressure as the original loadings if the revolver is still in good shape. I have fired the Fiocchi .455 webley ammo through mine without issue.
 
Thanks for the info, I had heard about the velocity being much lower than advertised. Doesn't Fiocchi also state that they load them taking into account the original pressures and the fact that they are going to be used in antiques?
 
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