HELP!, what is my 30-06 trying to tell me?

T

thepitchedlink

Regular
Super GunNutz
Rating - 100%
255   0   0
Location
Lumby Town!!
OK, new to reloading, working up my first load for my Ruger 77 mark II, 30-06
It seems to shoot Winchester Super-X, 165's OK, I'd like to duplicate that or better.
Starting with 165 Speer hot cores, IMR 4350, winchester brass and primers.
First off the Super - x's go through the chrony at 2950 - 2860 fps, pretty fast.

I started at 54 grains and worked up, I made my OAL 3.155, a little longer then the super-x's at 3.148.
As I got to 55.5 grains I realized that I wouldn't be able to fit much powder into the case. Started researching C.O.A.L. and relaized that max is 3.340, so I choose 3.248 as an inbetween. The gun appears to have a "to the lands" measurment of 3.345, but the mag won't take anything near that long.
Worked up from 54 - 57 in .5 grain increments. 55g gives about 2775fps, 56g about 2790, and 57, which is almost compressed gives 2820. But after 56g the patterns seems to get wider, always 2 together and then 1 , 3 inches out and high.
So I decided that 55g seems to be what it likes, so loaded 3 groups of 55g, 3 at 3.248, 3 at 3.223 and 3 at 3.266
The first group seems to be the best, but one looks like it wanted to flyout, cleaned the gun, next group first one is a flyer, next 2 side by side.
Cleaned gun, 3rd group, first one a flyer, next 2 side by side....
So what's it trying to tell me? It seems to hate a clean barrell.
Back to those Super x's, with an OAL of 3.148, they are quite short, yet I can hear the power rattling in the case, so there is lots of room, yet mine at 55g, before I increased the OAL would have been compressed. So the powder in the super x's must be hotter? Yes? I'm thinking that this gun might not like the 165 and IMR 4350. Any thoughts? thanks
 
Well - You've pretty well proved that that a clean, or cold, bore spits a flyer. If you want to eliminate this variable, shoot in rotation ie one shell with a certain powder charge, next with higher increment, next, etc (Dont clean between trials, use multiple targets, and keep track!)
You'll have to switch powder to get more fps - your values for 4350 seem to be bang on - according to the Lee manual (which categorizes H4350 only)
 
IMR powders have large kernels and hard to get lots into a case. I load my son's 30-06 with 58 gr of H4350 and a 168 gr TSX which is a much longer bullet than the Speer. Is the IMR the only powder you have?
 
Ya IMR 4350 is the only powder I have, I'm just starting out so I only bought the one powder, hopeing to do both 270 Winchester and 30-06 with it. I'd like a little more speed as well but to tell you the truth I just want to get it to pattern well. Then at least I can to hunt the gun and keep experimenting on the side. what's the suggestion for a little more speed from the '06? I guess I could keep the 4350 for using heavier bullets. I was going to try RL 19 or 22 but got talked into IMR 4350 b/c apparently it's easier to get and lots of people says it's great for the '06.
 
30-06

Occasionally you get a gun that shoots with a dirty barrel better than clean, my brother just had a 25-06 custom built and clean he get 1.5''-2.5'' groups with every load he has tried and after 15 shots or so through the barrel it starts to pattern 1'' and less but only when not cleaned.
 
After you clean the bore you need to fire a fouling shot or 2 before you start shooting for group. You will have to set your overall length so the rounds will feed from the mag box.

You may want to try other powders--H414 or Win 760 and IMR 4064 have usually given good results for me in 30-06's as well as the 4350.

44Bore
 
It's totally normal for the first shot out of a clean bore to go out of the group. Fire a couple of foulers then shoot for group. Before hunting, foul it, couple of dry patches and tape it.
 
IMR 4350 55gr and Hornady 180 Interbond are perfect outa my old Savage. Like most guns it's good to send a fouler down range before shooting for group.
 
Ahhhh man...

Just got back from the range, tried 3 groups of 4, 55g, 55.25g, 55.5g of IMR 4350 and 165 Hot Cores. No cleaning between groups. 55.25 is the tightest, could me me though... BUT!! Every group, the first rounds flys high right, about 2", then groups 3 together. So now it's not just a clean barrel but maybe a cool one. Today was a hot day and the barrell stayed warm to matter what, but between changing targets, the first round was out on all 3 groups. This is my hunting gun, so that first round is the one I'm interested in...guess I can go back and try waiting longer between rounds, maybe a cool cloth to cool the barrel down. I'll have to try some heavier bullets with this 4350 as well.
 
I like the way you are going at this. For a "newbie" you are doing things logically. The problem you are facing is that there are multiple variables, so controlled testing can be tricky.

I was first thinking it could have been that you are leaving a little oil film in the barrel, which would screw up the first shot or two - but you last report has eliminated that.

The powder you are using is quite appropriate for your caliber/bullet. RL19 is almost identical to 4350 and RL 22 is so slow you would not get enough in the case.

The fact that the bullet will not touch the rifling if set deep enough to work in the mag is important. Find the length that works well in the mag and note that as your OAL for future loading.

I have developed accuracy and hunting loads for hundreds of rifles and have had to deal with most of the problems. Yours sounds like a bedding issue. Your posting does not mention your location or age. This would be a big help for others trying to help you. If I knew your location I could suggest someone who would bed your rifle for you – cheap.

I do it all the time for $20. Enough to cover the cost of materials.

Bedding refers to how the rifle is bolted into the action and the consistency with which the barrel can vibrate each time it is shot. For starters, take a patch and wrap it around the barrel near the muzzle and then slip it down past the forend. Does it bind or clear easily. The barrel should be “free floating” all the way to the receiver section.

If it is touching, take the action our of the stock and wrap a piece of coarse sandpaper paper around a piece of wood like a piece of broom handle, and open up the barrel channel in the stock until there is lots of clearance. Re-seal the wood with some True Oil, Min Wax, varnish or shellac.

The other part of bedding involves treating the wood under the action, but I do not suggest this as a first time do it yourself project. I bedded 5 Cooeys before trying to bed a real rifle.

If your barrel is touching the forend, that is probably the cause of the first shot being wild. You can fix that yourself.
As for your handloading, the powder and loads you have are in the ball park. If it was my rifle, I would go up one notch in bullet weight to 180 grains. In this way you can have a single loading good for small animals like deer and the bigger guys, too. I would buy a box of flat base spitzers and round nose, too (unless you are in Western Canada, where hunting distances can be much longer). In the West a spitzer is the way to go. Some rifle shoot MUCH better with flat base round nose bullets.

Load five of each load, and .5 grain increments are fine. I would test 50 to 55 grains.

I say 5 round tests because anything less is very unreliable in telling you what you have. If you have a decent scope and are shooting off a rest, you should be able to finds a load that will put 5 shots into 2”.

My best shooting 30-6 is a Winchester M70. To test it out I installed a 20X target scope. I am an expert shooting off a bench. Out of the box it shot 180 gr match bullets into 6” at 200 yards. 4 of them went into 2 ½” and the flyer opened it up. Out of the box it shot 168 match bullets into 3 ½”. I then gave it the full accuracy treatment. I opened up the barrel channel, bedded the action, lapped the locking lugs and lapped the barrel, shooting groups after each successive modification. (I have a 200 yard range here at the house, with a heated/air conditioned indoor firing point.)

After just opening up the barrel channel, the 200 yard group was round and only 2.2”.

After the full treatment, all groups at 100 yards ran between 0.5 “ to 1.2”, with a variety of bullets. The 0.5” group was 180 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and the 1.2” group was some real old CIL 180 gr round nose. Velocities ran from 2600 fps to 2700 fps.

When you put your rifle back together, after opening up the forend, pay attention to how much torque you put on the two action screws. I don’t expect you have an inch pound torque wrench, to set 35 on the front and 25 on the tang. Make the front one tight, but don’t get carried away. Unless an action is pillar bedded, the wood can give way if the screw is too tight. And the tang screw takes les torque.

When you have the rifle apart, wipe out the wood and bottom of the action with paper towel. There may be some oil or solvent there. A rifle will not group with wet bedding. Store your rifle muzzle down, not on the butt. This prevents oil from running back into the action, trigger and bedding.

We look forward to hearing what you find and how the next test goes.

By the way. The velocity you report for the Winchester 165 gr. seems very high. If that is the correct velocity I would not set that as the "standard" to achieve. My hottest 165 test was 2800 fps, and I consider that a fairly hot load.
 
"...maybe a cool one..." That's not unusual either. That's why you need to allow time for cooling between strings when you're testing loads.
You'll find the .30-06 prefers 165 grain bullets with IMR4064. And you have to work up the load.
Beginning with the starting load, load 5 rounds only. Go up by half a grain of powder, loading 5 of each charge keeping them separate until you get to the max load in your manual.
Then go shooting. Shoot at 100 yards, for group only, slowly and deliberately off a bench.
Change targets between strings of 5 and allow time for the barrel to cool.
When you find the best group, sight in 4" high at 100. That'll put you on target out to about 300 yards with no hold over.
 
Thanks for the replys,m all info is good. I'm in Alberta and 35 years old, but haven't been into high power rifles since I was a teenager, so it's all new again. The gun is a Ruger 77 mark 2, stainless, laminate so I didn't think the stock would move much, but it might be. I ran a new 20$ down it last night and it definatly stops at the fore stock, so there is upward pressure in the barrel, I haven't pulled it out yet to investigate how much of a pressure point there is. If I bed it I will probably do it myself, as I have a couple of 22's to practise on and am quite confident with epoxys, glass and fillers.
I'm going to try more groups tommorow, all 55.25g, as those have been the tightest, will lots of time between shots. Gonna take a fouling shot first as well. I'll be getting together with an experienced reloader next week so I'm sure he'll shed a bit of light. I'll fool more later with seating depth and speed, right now I just want, +2700fps and the ability to kill "toonies" at the range, then bring on the whitetails....
 
OK, just put the action back in the stock, I was hoping to find some place that was rough and rubbing. I tightened the two rear screws first, good and snug then the 3rd, most forward, angled one and made that one good and tight. The stock was a little rough so I smoothed it out, but I don't think I made any changes. The front of the stock definaly has a pressure point that is built into the stock, it's a good half inch long. I can easily remove it, but do I want to? If I do that then the angled screw will keep pulling the action down into the stock until it touches somewhere else. Guess that's where pillars come in to play, giving the screws something to tighten against and still float the barrel. So quiestion is, can I remove the front pressure point and NOT bed the action? Or must I do both? The 20$ slips down the barrel a little better now, it stops right around the front ring on the scope and then a half inch from the fore end. Hhhmmm, that trigger looks easy to replace.... mine creeps. Second thought, better get it to shoot strainght first.
 
Remove the stock, use a length of dowel or a deep socket of a diameter close to the barrel channel as a sanding block and sand away. Test fit the stock to the gun, when you can slide a $50 bill between the barrel and stock you are done, torque her up and send me the fifty. If it goes worse you can always shim up a pressure point.
 
dont get in a hurry to free float your gun lots of them shoot just fine with some fore end pressure, it can be about 3 to 5 lbs. if you do free float your gun make sure to seal the stock if its wood or it can take on moisture and move enough to give more problems, shoot three shot groups, not more, theres lots of variables so be patient ,, wade
 
Ooohhh man, I think we're getin' there....

Ok so shot a couple more groups, first one high right, next two low left and together... Let the barrel cool for a long time and put one more high right again. So it's the barrel heating up that's throwing the 1st round off. I want this thing to shot the first couple strainght, then it can fly all it wants. I need to pull this out of truck, walk through bush, shoot deer, go home.
So I floated the barrel, 10 minutes with a deep socket and some sand paper. Today I went to the range early, still cold out, figured that was hunting conditions. Pulled her out and fired two quick rounds of 165 Speer, Hot Core handloads. Both where 8" low but withing 3/4 of and inch. Ok let barrel cool, fired 2 rounds Super x factory, 180g. About 2" apart and quite a bit higher...fair enough. Let her cool a bit and put a 3rd 165 handload next to the first 2...Good. Let it cool a bit, next 180 factory up with the other 2, still about 2 1/2 inch group, but OK.
Next I out a piece of cardboard under the fore end of the barrel and cranked the screws back down. Everything jumped about 10" high, but gave the same shaped groups as before. I notcied that the groups are quite vertical, so that confirms the heating as the casue of the eratic groups.
Took the cardboard back out and let her cool down again. Then shot a nice slow 3 round group of 165 handload after adjusting the scope. Got 2 within 1 inch and the 3rd just outside, 3.5inches high at 100yards. Then let her cool again and shot 2 180 factorys. Over 8 " high at 100y but both with in 1 1/2 inches.
So that's my story, she's liking the 165 handloads now, the rest is up to me. The factorys fly a little higher for whatever reason, but could always be dialed down for hunting. I'll play now with getting the handloads a little faster and seating depth. Gonna try some other powder next week as well.
 
Changing impact

Sounds like your rifle is in need of a re-bedding job. Changing point of impact as the barrel warms up is a nearly sure sign. The point of impact should not change.
 
thepitchedlink said:
Just got back from the range, tried 3 groups of 4, 55g, 55.25g, 55.5g of IMR 4350 and 165 Hot Cores. No cleaning between groups. 55.25 is the tightest, could me me though... BUT!! Every group, the first rounds flys high right, about 2", then groups 3 together. So now it's not just a clean barrel but maybe a cool one. Today was a hot day and the barrell stayed warm to matter what, but between changing targets, the first round was out on all 3 groups. This is my hunting gun, so that first round is the one I'm interested in...guess I can go back and try waiting longer between rounds, maybe a cool cloth to cool the barrel down. I'll have to try some heavier bullets with this 4350 as well.
Click to expand...




Like everyone has said theres a diff between clean and fouled as far as POI goes but if your leaving it fouled and still getting one of fliers you got bedding issues or perhaps loose scope. But my guess is bedding
 
Well - Rugers are bedded unusually in the first place. They are designed to have a pressure point at the fore-end tip. The reason for this is because they dont have any support of the action/barrel immediately forward of the recoil lug - which would be the customary approach for these Mauser style action.
IMHO - This style of bedding is vulnerable to stock warpage/shrink and swell, as it allows for substantial (and varying) forces on the barrel. (This is why your POI shifted so many inches...)
I had a Ruger 77 MK11 that shot 2 in groups at best with my various reload trials. I rebedded it to standard convention, free floated at the foreend tip and the rifle is now accurate and consistent. I would suggest you do the same, before you spend too much time and money on ammo.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom