help with 1911 identification

vettes

vettes

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
25   0   0
Location
North of Toronto, still land of the free, for now
Hi All.
I just got this what i believe to be a colt 1911 a1 (thats what the registration states)
It has no identification other than the G and serial number. The slide has no indentification or proof marks at all.
The coloring is uniform and shows age and wear, and looks to be all original. Anyone have any ideas if this is really a colt, it has a low serial number. It is a .45 acp. I know in the 80s and maybe earlier an ottawa police officer owned this, but thats as far as I can go back. I have looked around on the net for any info, but come up empty. Any help with what make and model this is would be appriciated. I blocked the last vin number on the serial, but it is a 5 digit serial. Pics are below

colt001.jpg

colt002.jpg

colt003.jpg

colt004.jpg
 
Last edited:
By the cut of the slide, the frame and the small parts it looks to be a WWII vintage USGI type issue 1911A-1 .45ACP pistol. However, all the identifying markings have been removed and the pistol has been reblued. The original finish should be some kind of matte grn/gry parkerizing.

The serial number stamped on your pistol is totally wrong for what the pistol appears to be. The serial number that is on it now was probably stamped on after the real/correct one was obliterated along with the US Property markings, inspector proofs and other markings which would help identify the pistol and makers that are typical of the Colt, Ithaca, Remington-Rand, Union Switch & Signal mfg USGI WWII 1911A-1 pistols.

A good resource for WWII USGI 1911 pistols from all makers is:

http://www.coolgunsite.com/

As for your registration... the CFC usually registers all USGI type .45ACP 1911A-1 pistols as "Colt" for the maker. Doesn't help in correctly identifying it, though.

Here's a couple things you might check:

Look under the firing pin stop on the slide. Some early WWII Colt 1911A-1's had the frame serial number stamped there.

colt4320.jpg


Disassemble the slide from the frame and look on the top of the frame in the area around where the disconnector comes up. See if there are any letters or inspector marks there.

colt4318.jpg
 
Last edited:
Try a magnet on the frame to see if it is aluminum or steel. It is definitely a 1911-a1 style but true Military Colt 1911A1's had all kinds of inspector stamps. And the slides all had different ways of laying out the 1911A1 on the slide which can indicate where it was made, some had their names on the slide. Yours may be a parts gun made on the 1911A1 style and not be a Colt at all. Or it could be a very rare secret sanitized unmarked clandestine CIA special ops weapon. It definitely is a puzzle.
 
Since it doesn't seem to have the additional "finger clearance cuts" on the frame behind the trigger, I'm thinking this is either a copy of the earlier 1911 (instead of the 1911A1), or maybe even an 80% frame kit that someone finished.
 
From past experience and having owned Colt's dating back to 1917,
one thing that I have found is the pre A1 1911's were not restamped.
As military surplus became more popular all the government markings
were obviously removed with some sort of a grinding tool. This may be
a long shot but try to get a 6N to transport to the US. If the ATF tells
you to contact the State Department you know you have a decomishoned
surplus 1911. This happened to me with 2 of my 1911's one of which
being an A1. Unfortunately this will not tell you if it is a true Colt which I
suspect it may not be. You would be surprised at how much information
the US retains on their surplus arms.

Sig
DVC
 
SDC said:
Since it doesn't seem to have the additional "finger clearance cuts" on the frame behind the trigger, I'm thinking this is either a copy of the earlier 1911 (instead of the 1911A1), or maybe even an 80% frame kit that someone finished.
Click to expand...

If you look closely, it does have the "finger clearance cuts" or relief cuts on the frame behind the trigger guard area. I do think it is a WWII vintage USGI 1911A-1 frame. But I think when the frame was "sanitized" by removing the original serial number, inspector marks, proof marks, and US Government and Army markings and refinished it has also made the relief cuts look diminished and rounded. The sharp edges typical of the original USGI models are definitely not present there anymore.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the help so far guys.
As for any grinding on this gun, all the surfaces are level, no grind marks. The fit and finish of this 1911 is almost perfect. Slide and frame gaps are great etc. This is all original stated by the last owner, who bought it from the officer in 1989.

I will take her apart again to look for any hidden marks, but the last time i didnt see anything.

I didnt buy this as a collector, just a shooter. Im new to guns still and still learning.

I do have one question, I do see alot of parts for 70 or 80 series, my problem is if this is a pre 70 series, what parts can i use if i want to add on to this?


andy
 
By grinding, I think folks are speculating the the frame and slide sides were ground using a surface grinder, or at least dressed on a flat surface. If you look at the sides, you can see longitudinal marks from finishing operations. These don't look like marks from a surface grinder, but could have been produced if an abrasive sheet was laid on a piece of glass, or other flat surface, and the parts rubbed against it. This would produce flat, clean surfaces, free of dips and hollows.
 
Ya, after I typed my last message, i thought that if it was done correctly on proper machine, it would skim the whole surface and not just one spot. I must say it was done well if any marks were ground off.

tiriaq said:
By grinding, I think folks are speculating the the frame and slide sides were ground using a surface grinder, or at least dressed on a flat surface. If you look at the sides, you can see longitudinal marks from finishing operations. These don't look like marks from a surface grinder, but could have been produced if an abrasive sheet was laid on a piece of glass, or other flat surface, and the parts rubbed against it. This would produce flat, clean surfaces, free of dips and hollows.
Click to expand...
 
vettes said:
I do have one question, I do see alot of parts for 70 or 80 series, my problem is if this is a pre 70 series, what parts can i use if i want to add on to this?


andy
Click to expand...

Andy - Despite all that has been said in this thread about your pistol someone obviously did a good job with it. It's a nice looking representative 1911A-1, albeit the original markings have been removed. Having collected/owned many different USGI 1911A-1 pistols over the past 25 years or so, judging by the small parts [checkered slide stop, hammer, mainspring housing] and the overall "fit" of the other parts & especially the slide to frame "fit" it is very likely that your pistol originally was one of the early WWII contract 1911A-1's. Too bad the markings have been removed, as in today's market, the value of original WWII USGI 1911A-1's has never been greater.

But to answer your question above... given that this pistol is in what's referred to as "pre Series 70 configuration", you are very much in luck. All aftermarket parts designed to be added to or adapted for 1911A-1 pistols should work out just fine. And given that you acquired this pistol as a "shooter" you've probably got very good value for your money there.
 
Yep, i was really pleased when I bought it. I should mention that it cost me $400. I figure i did well as a new norinco would be that cost, and i assume the quality and fit on this one and value makes it a good buy. I will strip her down tonight and relook for markings. If anyone want better pics of certain areas, just ask :)

Will report back


Andy
 
Thanks to all who had input. After much research with the help of great guy on a 1911 forum, pointed me to the US&S. After examining many original US&S 1911s, i was able to find partial marks that i had thought were scuffs. It turns out apart from being reserialed, all the parts (hammer,grips,safties etc) are all original. It seems when the gun was stripped of serials, it was then blued (US&S were a blue/grey) It turns out next to singer, us&s are the next best thing for collectabilty. Singer made 500 units, us&s 55000 units, and only in 1943. Value is squat since no stampings, but for $400, its not keeping me up at night.


Andy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom