Help with aiming?

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SpEnT

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Ok this is going to sound wierd but I'm hoping someone either has seen this or has some more suggestions. First a little background; I'm not compeltely new to shooting sports, with pistols I'd shot quite a few different .22LR at a couple of local clubs and after a while I had some decent groupings. I'm left handed and right eye dominant but still try to sight with my left eye. I typically shoot with decent elevation but always a little to the right but the groupings were good. I decided to finally buy my first pistol instead of always using club guns and bought a Norinco 1911 .45 ACP.

Now my problem/issue. I took the gun to the range, took aim and went through 2 magazines ... not one on the paper @25y. Not knowing what to correct I tried sighting with my right eye .. again nothing on the paper. Getting frustrated I decided to put targets up beside one another and let another 5 fly ... to my surprise I hit the paper!! of the target to the right of the one I was shoting and almost exactly where I was aiming. A local gunsmith was awesome enough to make some suggestions (tapping the rear sight to the left with a brass drift) but I can't get the thing to move for the life of me.

Can anyone here possibly suggest what's going on? I'm wondering if my eyes are out of whack or something. I wear glasses but they are really weak. I have astigmatism but not that bad and I've never been this far off the paper ever. If there's things I can try to correct I will otherwise I'm thinking I need adjustable sights lol

I'm attaching the image of the two targets I had up at 25y. The five holes below center are what hit when I was aiming on center of the left target. The rest of the holes were just me trying things but nothing was consistent.

IMG_20120331_164524.jpg
 
Eye dominance opposite the hand you shoot with can cause problems.

If you line up with one eye and the other eye takes over, what you are seeing can happen.

But likely it is a sight needs moving or you are incorrectly using way too little left index trigger finger(one hand with LH hold).

Let another pistol shooter try it @ the range to eliminate the possibility of a handgun/sight issue.
 
skypilot said:
Eye dominance opposite the hand you shoot with can cause problems.

If you line up with one eye and the other eye takes over, what you are seeing can happen.

But likely it is a sight needs moving or you are incorrectly using way too little left index trigger finger(one hand with LH hold).

Let another pistol shooter try it @ the range to eliminate the possibility of a handgun/sight issue.
Click to expand...

I try to eliminate the eye issue by closing the right eye but then I'm probably crossing the line of site lol. I think what you suggested is my best bet. But if another person shoots it with decent accuracy, what are my options? :) I dont have any tricks for making my site picture work with my eyes. At least I'll be able to eliminate the gun. Thanks for the suggestion!
 
The extra recoil may be causing you to move the gun just before it goes off ..."flinch"... try dry firing it while you are lined up with the target and see if the gun remains lined up as you pull the trigger.
It takes many rounds of .45 to overcome the flinch but once you do the grouping begins.
As suggested get an experienced shooter to check out the gun to make sure it is hitting to POA,this can save a lot of grief.
 
X2 on getting an experienced shooter to try the pistol first and go from there.

If you don't have anyone available to help you at the range, I would suggest dry firing a lot at home against a bright background if you haven't done that. Try it one handed as this will help to highlight if you have a trigger control issue. When you dry fire your goal is for the sight picture to not change at all. Then go back to the range and bench rest
the pistol while you shoot it. If you get the same result, you will need to drift the sight. You will have to learn where to position your trigger finger for each pistol that you shoot. If this is a new concept for you, check this guide out and look up the section about trigger control

http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf

I would reccomend that you dry fire at the range before live fire and even try dry firing in between groups of live fire.

Most pistol sights are regulated for something called six oclock hold. That means that you would line the sights up so the the black portion is on top of the sight picture. Do a google search for six oclock hold. I would imagine that your norinco has a fixed front sight and a rear that is windage adjustable only, correct?

I am also left handed and right eye dominant. I learned to shoot right handed now and it has helped my shooting a lot, not to mention I don't have to worry about sourcing left handed pistols and holsters. HOWEVER - the cross dominance will not cause the large error that you are seeing right now. I found that it was more of an issue during different types of rapid fire and made no difference for something like shooting off of a bench.

Let us know how you are making out!
 
I would say most likey you are just using the tip of your finger on the trigger. Assuming the gun checks out. Try getting your finger in to the first joint/nuckle to sorta craddle the trigger if that makes sense. To be a foot off at 25 yards isnt as bad as you think if you are new to it, I've seen people MUCH worse. That said my bet is still on your sites being off
 
~ The sights are probably regulated with 230gr FMJ ammo.
~ I would use 6 o'clock hold, put that big orange dot right on top of the front sight. You are trying for small, consistent groups.
~ Trigger control looks like it may be an issue. Don't hurry up and pull the trigger before sights move off target, wait for proper sight picture.
~ If the sight picture is too blurry...breathe.

~~~

Strive for consistent groups, the smaller the better. The sights may need adjusted, but if you are hitting paper don't worry about where the groups are. Just work on consistency for now.

At home, with no ammo...practice proper sight alignment, and proper sight picture. Practice trigger control by dry fireing. Start by dry firing with your closed, feel for flinching and movement that shouldn't be there and eliminate it. Combine sight alignment, sight picture and trigger pull. Work on any errors as they occur, treat each type of error individually as not as a package deal.
 
run some ball & dummy relays , 1 to 3 dummies / mag . more your target up closer , 10/15yds . if your 45 is stock gi spec , you'll be doing good to get 4" @ 25yds , out of a ransom rest .
 
I tend to go with the idea that you've got some eye dominance issues to sort out. Other than two fliers the rest of your shots are grouped decently well. They are just over to the side. So it doesn't appear to be a flinch issue which would produce a far more open scattering.

A lot of us use the "wrong" eye for any number of reasons. I'm one such person. Some astigmatism in my right eye means that I can focus on the sights and shoot MUCH better by using my left eye while holding the gun in my right hand. So there's no reason you can't hold and shoot left handed but use your right eye to sight. Just turn the head a little so you don't need to twist your upper body.

Outside of this I suspect you may be seeing double sighting images and for some reason you're using the wrong image. For me using my left eye means I need to use the right most sights image for aiming. In your case using your right eye means you need to use the left most image of the sights. Alternately if you focus totally on your front sight so there's only one front blade image then the right most target image is the one you want to aim at. The fact that you're over by the distance you show suggests to me that you got mixed up on which image to use for aiming or to aim at.
 
holy crap you guys are awesome lol ... taking notes now and will definately post back any/all results. again thanks everyone this is all very much appreciated. I love shooting sports but it's a lot more fun when you hit what you're aiming at :D
 
oneskilledshooter said:
Do a google search for six oclock hold. I would imagine that your norinco has a fixed front sight and a rear that is windage adjustable only, correct?
Click to expand...

technically both sights are fixed (dovetail with no mechanical adjustment) but they could possibly both be "tapped" in either direction, although even with a brass drift I couldn't get the rear site to move. I may also have been a little conservative on the pounding as I didn't want to damage anything.

I may get adjustable sights if I can however, I'm so far off I'm not sure they would help right now
 
My suggestion would be to aim on the orange bullseye dead center, and maybe purchase a Diopter to allow you to concentrate on the sights and it should knock out the double sight picture too. It is a great help at those distances.
 
I am also left handed ,right eye dominant,and all these tips will help me too!
Thanks to the guys who offered up the info.I can use either eye and basically get the same results not fantastic but ok,for the amout of practice I get .
I tried just using my thumbs aiming at the window and it seems by the look of your targets, that even if you are right eye dom, the aim point is where your left eye would put it,Just try it on your target,same as testing for dom eye then close one and then the other I bet your left eye puts your thumb right on where the rounds hit!
I have never had a left handed rifle or handgun before, would like to try one someday and see if it makes a difference!
Either way, like the guys said, once the groupings are ok,then just move the sights to suite yourself!
 
X2 for letting someone else shoot it first before you mess with the sights.

My own recent "epiphany" was when I mixed five dummy rounds randomly in my mags with five live rounds.

I had my rear sight cranked up because my shots were always low. But when I shot the mag with the live and dummys mixed... I flinched the barrel down on a dummy. In a big way. I was surprised at how much. Once I stopped flinching that day, my rounds were impacting way above where I was trying to hit... I had to lower my rear sight to pretty much where it started out when I got it.

Dry firing is worth the time but the ball and dummy practice really shows if you flinch during live fire.
 
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