help with ideas for building low budget target rifle

Evanguy

Evanguy

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so i should start off by saying I'm VERY new to this type of shooting and have never actually shot longer then 100m, I've done quite a bit of shooting over the last 4 years, and build a few rifles and reload 8 different calibers, i make my own molds at work and shoot LOTS of cast bullets. so i do know how to shoot but I'm am honestly not very good. i have only 1 scoped rifle and its a 22 i tuned up, that shoots 3\4" 10 round groups at 50m but past that i cant shoot well. Using center fires and iron sights a 6" group at 100m I'm very happy with.

i collect Lee Enfields and also build sporters[different calibers] out of them, i have loads of parts and know them very well, so that is mostly what I'm shooting but i have fired quite a few newer guns/ non mill surplus but still have a hard time getting tighter then 6", i think I'm just too quick to pull the trigger.

anyway my newest idea to build a rifle is to build a budget Open F-class/target rifle.....i know, probably not a good idea, as i cant shoot well, but that's my new plan and I'm stuck on it for the last few weeks.


there isnt much of a plan yet but i do know a few things so far. but have a lot of questions and also am looking for opinions and insight to this side of shooting.

basically I'm a manual machinist who has full access to the shot after hours and plan to build the whole rifle my self.

so far the for sure part of the plan is I'm going to use a stripped 1957 no4 mk2 receiver with a new bolt fitted by me to +90% lug contact.

i also plan on building the rilfe in 6.5x55 swedish, im not sure of barrel slection though. i was thinking of buying one of the new Zastava 6.5x55 mauser barrels from tradexcanada and installing it with a barrel nut,

the stock will be aluminum cnc machined out of of a 2"x2"x24" peice of aluminum i cut today and started shaping. the butt stock will be aluminum with some adjustments places on it, i plan on fully free floating the barrel and making sure the fitment on the draws is perfect also a rear cross bolt to keep the fitment tight.

I'm not sure about the muzzle break, if i can make one or should i buy one known to work well, I'm sure there are difference in them.

I'm also not sure on the scope or scope mount, i am not opposed to drill and tap the receiver for a very nice scope mount. but i do have a NO d/t mount for the no4 rifle and was wonder if its worth trying that. and i have no idea of the scope, id like the best bang for my buck at around 350$ and have no issues buying a used scope of someone rifle when they upgrade

also using the 6.5x55, pressures are perfect for a no4 receiver but I've noticed there are bullets from 85-160gr and from the bit of long range shooting I've read about it seems i should be pushing around 3000fps so should i probably look for a 85-100gr bullet at about 3000fps to start load development with? or would a little heavier bullet fight the wind a bit better?

basically i have a stripped LE receiver [and all the parts needed for it], a cnc/manual machine shop, free labor and a lot of excitement for a f-class rifle and would love input, ideas and thoughts, as I'm sure you can tell buy reading this I'm new to it and even if this rifle doesn't work out as i plan ill be excited to have made it and also i will have learned a lot.

i get i can Probably just buy a Savage axis and it will shoot as good out the box, but I'm looking to build a rifle.

when the rifle is finished i really hope to shoot 5 shot groups at 100m, 1 moa in size, then try reaching out farther and farther as i get practice
 
Well this should be a unique piece, Your caliber choice gives up something to the 7mm for F/O but considering what you are doing it should be okay. Try to find the heaviest barrel you can for this project. Lighter barrels heat faster and can lose accuracy because of it. Your no drill base is not really a good option as it can work loose and this will spoil your accuracy. You work in a machine shop so try making a bracket that can attach to the stock and come up over the receiver to attach your bases.
This sounds like an interesting build, post pics as you progress as I am sure there is more than just me would like to see what you do.
 
Contact the Nova Scotia rifle Association and get out to a practice or match and talk to some of the shooters. Your caliber of choice will put you into the F Open class shooting against rigs in the several thousand dollar range. If I was a new shooter starting off in F Class I think I would lean towards F-TR which is either .308 or .223. For a new shooter I would point them towards a .223.
There are actions available that are a little stiffer than a #4 that would make life a lot easier to build on.
 
Forget the muzzle brake(not allowed) and no 4 action(too weak - flexes - stretches). Come to Bull Meadow this weekend and meet shooters and see what they are using.

Talk more later.

Peter
 
Different is cool, but like others have said, the No. 4 isn't inherently strong for a precision rifle build. Having said that I have a DCRA No.4 in .308 that shoots amazingly well, so it's not a hopeless cause.

The swede action would be a great platform. I had a T/R built off a military mauser that still shoots better than I do and better than a lot of higher dollar rigs. I shot my personal best with it. Remember Peter, you called it a deer rifle.

I shoot in Debert with a small group of guys on most Saturday mornings in the summer, but no F open calibers allowed. .308 and .223 only. Something to think about before you build.
 
We don't currently have anyone shooting F-open at Bull meadow(NSRA). Just FTR and TR guys in the fullbore target rifle section, all 308's. But it would be fun to have an Open class if we got enough participants. Its fine to come with a F-O rifle but you'll be shooting alone in that class for a while if you were to join and enter matches, I stared with a 260rem but built a 308 the next year.
We have a practice scheduled for the 5th august and another in september, we're using these to bring new people in who might be interested to shoot TR and F-class and see what we're doing in that section. If interested contact me (same goes for other NS guys reading this who want to get into this type of shooting).
We're shooting on a 1/2moa V-bull and 1moa bull, 300M, 500M, 600M and 800M are our normal distances.

For 6.5mm bullets, the Lapua Scenar 139's is excellent with N160 powder. Lapua brass is also #1.

As to building your own rifle, I do the same and its a fun project.
Use a good action, this of course depends on how much $ you want to put into it but at least a Rem or savage action, easy to later get a barrel and thread/chamber it. Barnard actions are the most popular I see on match rifles.
As mentioned, no muzzle breaks in this type of competition, not needed anyhow.
 
A few things to consider:

In an F class relay, the least amount of shots you shoot is 12rds... most are 17rds... in the US, over 22rds. The barrel you choose has to stay stable enough to maintain accuracy through that many rds without warping. Factory and milsurp barrels typically can't and it becomes very frustrating when you have no idea where that next shot is going to go.

Current powders like to burn best near magnum pressures. A Lee action is not designed to handle that pressure level and you are going to have alot of issues with action flex and case bulging.

If you really want to use a milsurp action, consider the M98 large ring or the P17 from Winchester. These can be made to work very well and are strong. Accuracy potential is not much different then other commercial products when all the TLC is done.

So much easier to work with an action like the Savage or Rem 783 - 700.

Not what you wanted but why not just buy a Savage FTR, put on a bipod, quality rear bag and focus on shooting, reloading and enjoying the rest of the season. Then you will have a great idea of what is desireable and build what you want this off season .

Good luck with your build

Jerry
 
wow guys, well you sure did give me a lot to think about.

well ill admit I'm a little disappointed, but i do see what you guys are saying and also know you guys have far more knowledge and also experience then me so i will listen.

i will still use the no4 action to build a rifle out of but i probably wont focus on precision rifle build, since i had the stripped receiver here and that is what brought this whole idea and idea to explore this side of shooting.

but i do like being different and I'm one of those people who like stuff that others don't. i really wouldn't want to use a commercial receiver, i really don't have much interest in them, and buying a new rifle, [like made in the last 20 years] doesn't appeal to me at all really. i basically just like old junk/ the under dog is what i have been told many of times

the Mauser actions and P14/17 actions would work well, and i could maybe see my self using a P14 for the build, but even still my excitement and the cool factor would drop A LOT in my eyes.

im not sure what im going to do, but i thanks you all for your posts, its been an eye opener for sure.


maynard -- yeah i will have to check that out, i wouldn't mind getting more involved in this stuff, also 308 and 223 are the least interesting round out there in my eyes. i cant see me every building or buying something chambered in them. i like older obscure stuff and most often the obsolete ammo and rifles are the most interesting, im not here to win i just want to have fun

peterdobson- i thank you for your input, you guys have changed my mind on the no4 but im still not sure what action ill end up using now, and i would very much like to come see how it goes down and what people are using. thanks i may do that.

AdrianM -- i know they arn't strong compared to other receivers, but liek you said they can be made ot shoot, people still use them in target comps and also ww2 snipers had them, they easily could have bought a different rifles for them if the no4 are so Honorable, the swede action would be cool, and like said earlier, the more common the round is the less it appeals to me, i don't want to be able to buy the ammo in stores without having to actually look for it, i like the stuff that just cant be bought any more and you have to start with buying brass.

SND-- thanks for the info, and shooting in a class by my self may even be ideal, as ill be learning how to shoot this style shooting. ill be in touch with you, I'm very interested in this. thanks. thanks for the input on the actions, i may be able to bring m,y self to buy an action that wasn't put on a mass produced commercial arm, i can see that working for my odd brain.

Mystic Precision - i will consider everything you said. so i believe your saying i should buy a blank when picking the barrel, ive been back and forth on that idea, and ill use it, that is what ill do and hope it saves me the head aches down the road. and pressure in the no4 i was thinking of leading the 6.5 to about 52,000psi using a touch faster powder then you would in a 64,000psi load, do all powder burn better when loaded to 60k+psi? or is a compressed load more important then reaching the top pressure. ill take a look into the mauser and p17 actions, i may go with after market though, im a weird person, and buying a rifle would get me into shooting this summer but i do have QUITE a few to play with and i may just focus on tightening up my groups at 100m, basically just trigger time, i have a Hornady Pro-jector set up for 303 so i can really bang out the 303 ammo for range times and practice.

dero338- it was your wording in this post that knocked me off the no4 action kick. adding the word carefully made that whole post for me.


So im not sure were ill go with this project. I would love to hear more of your ideas and thoughts. This has been very helpfull. Thanks guys
 
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Evanguy, going to Bull Meadow today to test with SND(co-chair TR NSRA) who is getting range ready for APM starting tomorrow.

You should meet John Marshall, New Glasgow, who is planning to be at range on Saturday. He knows a bit, having been given special recognition last year by NRA GB, noting that it has been 60 years since John's first match at Bisley. He has over 35 years as a gunsmith and is into his 63rd year in TR and was high man at the British Team Match held in NB last month. He will tell you to get a Barnard, considering them the finest action regardless of cost.

I will refrain from passing on his opinion of no 4 actions.

There will be others in attendance and some interesting and helpful sorts, such as Robert Smith(finest kind) from NL.

Hope to see you there!

Peter
 
Thanks Peter, i do plan on heading out saturday morning for a few hours to watch what goes on and see how the shooters do it. Its only 45 minutes from my house. I just live 15 minutes from brooklyn,
ive gotten more info from SND and im pretty excited to check this out. Maybe ill see you there.
 
The terms 'Low Budget' and 'Target Rifle' are not usually synonymous - it can be done but usually it isn't the case. With that in mind, let me suggest three routes to go:

  1. Forget Budget - Stay Custom: By a Barnard action ( suggest Peter @ Hirsch ), a quality heavy barrel ( Bartlein, Benchmark, Krieger etc. ) a McMillan F-Class or similar stock and have a quality gunsmith assemble components for you. You will have a match-winning capable rifle that you can grow into and never doubt that misses are you not the equipment. What will this look like? Well here is a link to my FTR rig to give you an idea: http://www.choubrothersprecision.co...ocktimneytacticaltriggerkriegerbarrelin308win
  2. Stay Low Budget - Use a Rem 700 action ( or Savage if you prefer ) and a quality match barrel and a decent stock ( consider a HS Precision take off for example ). You will have a fun gun to learn with and you will have had fun building it and you won't have spent too much money. Suggestion: if you go with this route consider a more tactical style build with a detachable magazine and a threaded barrel - it will be easier to re-sell when you decide to buy something like #1 above :)
  3. Take Jerry's advice and buy a Savage F-Class. I do not, personally, like Savage rifles but I have owned quite a few and they do shoot well. The Savage F-Class is a very good 'value' buy.

I love Lee-Enfield rifles and have a number of them You came here for advice and there are people who are very knowledgeable who have given you that advice -I strongly recommend you listen to them and DO NOT build a F-Class rig off one.

Good luck in your adventures,

Bob
 
^^ thanks for the post and i do plan on listening to them and not using the lee enfield action. But by cheap i mean no labour costs at all, no gun smithing costs at all, no accessories cost ( scope mount, stock, internal receiver parts) i could have 300 hours machinging time and thats no cost other then time and i have free access to my work after hours and on weekends. Free aluminum and 416 stainless. So the only thing i have to buy is a receiver, barrel, scope and rings. il make the rest. Hence the building a rifle not assembling a rifle.

If i was paying the 80$ an hour machining rate it would be a few thousand dollars.

I was hoping to use a no4 action buy a new mill surplus barrel in 6.5x55 and make the rest and buy a scope. I was thinking about 500 and id have a rifle i build that would shoot 1moa.

But now im into buying a barrel blank, reemer, receiver, rings and a used scope.

I just want to build a rifle and i also want to get better at shooting. I guess i should have stated i wanted a 1moa rifle i could use in f-class open. Not a f-class rifle.
 
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few years ago, I was in your shoes and did my first build with a lot of spare time . I started with a rusted out swede 96 and a new M38 barrel from tradeex.

I ended up with this and with tangent bullets, it could shoot moa steady. ( cold barrel)

I traded it for just one reason, I dont like controled feed action for target. I miss the stock because I could adjust position of the grip. I should have just sell the barreled action and re-inlet the stock.

IMG_0918_zpsxtgljw82.jpg
 
That rifle right there is basically what i was thinking. Simple build, use it as a single shot, same looking stock ( only 2 peice if it was aLE receiver(its not going to be any more though)),
thats a nice looking rifle man. I hope mine looks as good. And shoots as good lol.
 
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I'll see you Saturday. We do 300M, 500M morning, and 500, 600, 800M in the afternoon.

I started with a F-open rifle the first season, then did FTR 308 the next 3 years and now just these last couple weeks finally put a TR rifle together, did a few last adjustments today. I kinda wish I had started with TR right from the start but didn't know it even existed at the time. It's a whole other shooting experience, hard to describe it. But also learned a lot with FTR that will help me now I think.

As to scopes or any sight type really, a good sight can always be put on a better rifle later on. Nightforce is quite popular on many FTR and F-O rifles.
 
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Just so you can see what is competitive for little money... My rig uses a Stevens 200 SA receiver (yep, a hunting action that retailed for $325 for the entire rifle back in the day), Rifle basix Savage 2 trigger, Shilen or Krieger match barrels (have even used prefits), homemade stock (this one used scrap wood from my renos so zero material cost).

How well can it work? Well, it helped me win 3 matches so far this year in Washington state including the WA Palma Championship and WA LR championship in FTR.

Exclude the cost of the match barrel which is the same regardless, the rest of the rifle minus optics has less cost then a bare stripped custom action.... then you add labour to put it all together.

Your Mauser build will cost MORE, have less options and parts, and you will have a really hard time keeping up..... I am all for home built DIY.. see my website for a number of these.

All I am saying is put the money and time into ingredients that will get you to where you want to go. Sometimes "cheap" parts lead to the most expensive build... I have been there, built pretty much all of them.... and I mean this literally.

YMMV...

If I can help with parts let me know....Always happy to help shooters get into the F class game. Hopefully, we can get you pointed in the right direction.

Jerry
 

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Evanguy;13977506 I just want to build a rifle and i also want to get better at shooting. I guess i should have stated i wanted a 1moa rifle i could use in f-class open. Not a f-class rifle.[/QUOTE said:
I think your build plan and choice of the forum in which to shoot the build may lead to some disappointment but I do wish you all the best and envy your skill and access to machinery. Have fun with SND at the range.
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Alright you guys, you have brought me around to seeing the big picture.

I came here because i had a no4 reveiver i wanted to make a rifle out of. Then i seen why it wasnt the best idea and started to come around to using a non LE receiver but still a way less common one then say a rem700. I like to be different and i like making stuff out of nothing. And i very much so diss like stuff everyone and their dog owns reguardless of how good it is.

But the more i looked into this type of shooting and the more i get excited about it and the more i talk to you guys im starting to change my mind completly and now i am just going to build a rifle for the purpose of long range shooting, not build a rifle so i have a cool, different rifle( in my eyes) that may shoot ok.

So as of now, ill take your advice and i will use a proper action for the job. Its not going to be a rem700 for sure. ( way too common for me) but it will be an action made for 64,000psi rounds and also able to buy parts for it. Ill end up buying a compete hunting rifle for the reveiver.

And if im using a blank barrel and buying a reemer and have an action that can be loaded to 64,000 i am going to find a interesting round to chamber the blank with.

Im not sure yet but i have always liked the 257 weatherby mag. And there are a few other. Ill have to do some more readng and thinking about it.

Thanks guys im glad i came around. Its hard for me sometimes.
 
I think that if I was in your position I would start with a mauser action. They are strong and smooth and you can learn a lot by doing all the work yourself. i.e. altering bolt, drilling & tapping, converting mag /triggerguard to hinged type. This stuff is pricey to have done but easy to do and you will gain a lot from doing it. You wi;; not have a F class rifle but can make what you want without a lot of outlay.
 
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