So I've got a question for you guys. What benefits do custom rifles like RMR, Hill country, Jarrett rifles bring to the table over the high end factory rifles like Sako, Sauer, or Cooper? I've never owned any fully hand built rifles, just Sako's to this point. I understand you can chamber a custom to whatever caliber you like, LOP etc, but are they that much better for accuracy, finish, durability, etc, for the added cost? I would like to here your first hand experience on this......Thanks...
High end factory rifles vs custom built rifles??
- Thread starter DIGGER2
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I don't own any but have shot several of each. Factory high end is most likely cheaper. Also doesn't take 6-18 months to get. That said knowing exactly what you want and getting just that adds confidence I think.
If you have not so average measurements a custom maybe worth it
If you have not so average measurements a custom maybe worth it
High end factory has far better resale value.
Fit and finish is highly dependant on who does the work or what factory rifle you're buying. A $10 000 bolt action Heym express rifle is going to have nicer fit and finish than all but the best custom builders.
Custom guns are for rifles that you envision having a specific purpose. That is, you should have a goal in mind that cannot be satisfied with an avaliable factory rifle. If there is a factory rifle out there that will fill the role it's often better to buy it simply for the resale factor. IMO at least.
Fit and finish is highly dependant on who does the work or what factory rifle you're buying. A $10 000 bolt action Heym express rifle is going to have nicer fit and finish than all but the best custom builders.
Custom guns are for rifles that you envision having a specific purpose. That is, you should have a goal in mind that cannot be satisfied with an avaliable factory rifle. If there is a factory rifle out there that will fill the role it's often better to buy it simply for the resale factor. IMO at least.
well said and I will second that resale on a custom built no name rifle is very low.
The high end brands have a custom shop where you can basically order a new rifle (sauer, blaser, Heym, steyr etc) with whatever options your heart desires and it is going to retain it's value, even appreciate in most cases as we have seen price increases every year from all the high end European makers for at least the last 10 years on the same products
True. The custom high-end factory rifles really soar and stay up there. I compared pricing of a bone stock used Steyr with one that had a custom made stock out of the USA and the factory gun sold for considerably more .
And I have found that the custom departments can do just about anything a custom gunmaker can do from a function standpoint
And I have found that the custom departments can do just about anything a custom gunmaker can do from a function standpoint
It depends a lot on the high end factory gun that you choose. Some high end factory firearms can take a year or more before delivery, and the cost can easily be more than some custom made firearms.
Thanks for the replies guys. I would say the general consensus on this topic is that higher end factory rifles would be the better purchase? I was just wondering that a rifle chambered in let's say a 30-06 with standard LOP of 13.5-14" , with no real other custom requests, the factory rifles like Sauer, Cooper, Mauser , seem to be the better gun purchase. There's no real point in ordering the same thing from a custom company like RMR, Hill Country, unless you truly need something custom I guess.
You could look at it this way: Budget brands: 80% quality. Recognized brands "regular" lines: 90% quality. Recognized brands "high end" lines: 99% quality. Custom built (assuming the gunsmith is a master of his trade): 99.9% quality.
You pay a premium for that extra 0.9%. It's all about how much you want/need it.
You pay a premium for that extra 0.9%. It's all about how much you want/need it.
I just received a new Cooper model 51 in the mail on Friday. This one did take a while to arrive from when I ordered it as I had their custom shop do a few extras to it such as a fluted custom twist barrel and fluted bolt. The only small disappointment with it for now is that it doesn't have the exact stock on it that I want as B+C is not making one for it yet. I did however get to pick the colour of laminate that I settled for until such time as the synthetic one is available. I ordered this rifle when the Canadian $ was at par with the American $ and the rifle has appreciated in value just due to the exchange factor. A full custom would have cost me the same or more with the same wait time but with this rifle I have a warranty and a very small hole in a test target.
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A factory rifle, even a high end factory rifle is built to appeal to as wide a segment of the buying public as possible, whereas the custom rifle is built to appeal to a single customer. Chances are that should the original owner decide to trade off or sell his custom rifle, the further it strays from the basic design of a factory rifle, the longer it would sit on the a gunshop rack before a like minded customer takes a shine to it, and reached for his wallet.
A big disadvantage, beyond the cost of the custom rifle, is the length of time it takes from conception to delivery, which can literally be years. By then your interest could have shifted to other things, or the reason for the build may no longer be relevant to you. The high end factory rifle offers the advantage of equal, or even better quality compared to the custom rifle. Before you pay for it, you can pick up, the high end factory rifle and decide for yourself if it appeals to you as much as you thought it would, whereas you are committed to paying for the custom rifle, sight unseen, once you've paid your deposit. If an example of the high end factory rifle happens to be on the rack of your LGS, you can take ownership of it, as quickly as you can pay for it. Where the high end factory rifle might appreciate in value, its unlikely that you would even recover your investment from the sale of your custom rifle, never mind make a profit from it.
The advantage the custom rifle has over the high end factory rifle is that the customer has the option of choosing from an unlimited range of parameters, from action, to trigger, to barrel make, material, length and contour, to chambering, to the style of magazine, to the style and rate of twist of the rifling, to the choice of a muzzle brake, to sights, quarter ribs, to metal or wood finish, to stock design, stock material, to the type of bedding, custom flush or raised swivel studs, and the style of butt plate or recoil pad. Also there's an unlimited selection of embellishments that the customer can have added: things like cartridge traps, custom engraving and printing, gold inlaying, fancy wood stock inlays, fancy checkering, presentation grade wood, and all sorts of other things that might appeal to a customer from the standpoint of cosmetic enhancement.
A big disadvantage, beyond the cost of the custom rifle, is the length of time it takes from conception to delivery, which can literally be years. By then your interest could have shifted to other things, or the reason for the build may no longer be relevant to you. The high end factory rifle offers the advantage of equal, or even better quality compared to the custom rifle. Before you pay for it, you can pick up, the high end factory rifle and decide for yourself if it appeals to you as much as you thought it would, whereas you are committed to paying for the custom rifle, sight unseen, once you've paid your deposit. If an example of the high end factory rifle happens to be on the rack of your LGS, you can take ownership of it, as quickly as you can pay for it. Where the high end factory rifle might appreciate in value, its unlikely that you would even recover your investment from the sale of your custom rifle, never mind make a profit from it.
The advantage the custom rifle has over the high end factory rifle is that the customer has the option of choosing from an unlimited range of parameters, from action, to trigger, to barrel make, material, length and contour, to chambering, to the style of magazine, to the style and rate of twist of the rifling, to the choice of a muzzle brake, to sights, quarter ribs, to metal or wood finish, to stock design, stock material, to the type of bedding, custom flush or raised swivel studs, and the style of butt plate or recoil pad. Also there's an unlimited selection of embellishments that the customer can have added: things like cartridge traps, custom engraving and printing, gold inlaying, fancy wood stock inlays, fancy checkering, presentation grade wood, and all sorts of other things that might appeal to a customer from the standpoint of cosmetic enhancement.
The posters above have done a very good job of explaining the pros vs cons of the question you've posed. All I would add to that is that if you are in the market for custom, you likely enjoy rifles, and enjoy trying new things. If you buy wisely, there are many, many high end used rifles out there that are in as new condition, but the original owner has eaten the depreciation. You could literally buy, try, and sell three or four as new, high end rifles - with no or very little financial loss - in the time you would wait for delivery of one custom rifle that you will lose money on when you go to sell. Just take a look at Prophet River's consignment page and the EE right here. I have found that beyond what you learn, there is a considerable enjoyment factor involved in getting new to you guns as well. In the end, it is your money, and maybe you have your heart truly set on a custom, but there really are many, many beautiful, quality production rifles out there. Good luck in your journey, as it is as much fun as the final destination.
sir_springer
Regular
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- East Kootenays
About 30 years ago I decided my trusty and very accurate BSA 1917 Enfield 30.06 would be a lot better gun if I had it completely customized to suit me. And so I took it to a gun maker here in BC and left it with him for about a year and a half. New stock, jeweled the bolt, completely re-blued, pretty much the works. And he did a nice job of it. It was a one off, and all mine. Didn't shoot any better, but sure looked pretty!
I used it for the next season, handled it with kid gloves, a fretted the hell out of every single scratch and bruise it still acquired regardless.
The next year I picked up a Rem. 700 BDL Varmint Special 25.06 at a local gun show in Lloydminster. Weight didn't bother me, and could it ever shoot the lights out, including smallest group of my life, 1/8" at 100 yds.
The fancy custom rifle has been a Safe Queen ever since.
Point being: Unless you're after bragging rights, go for a gun you won't be reluctant to use and abuse. A great deal of the cost of a custom rifle is in the stock, select grade, and a helluva lot of work to finish it. But in the end, for all that money it's no less vulnerable or fragile than one off the shelf for $1000.
Cooper, for example, builds some supremely accurate rifles with synthetic stocks, as does Jerrett and others. Durable fiberglass/graphite/Kevlar stocks that are a big step up from most standard brands, properly fit and bedded. Use 'em for years, and...with reasonable care...not have it show at the end of the day. Forbes even goes so far as to serialize each stock to each action that it's fit to in order to maximize accuracy.
And considerably less money laid out up front!
Think long term before jumping. Custom rifles in beautifully crafted stocks can be like works of art...and that can be a problem.
FWIW.
I used it for the next season, handled it with kid gloves, a fretted the hell out of every single scratch and bruise it still acquired regardless.
The next year I picked up a Rem. 700 BDL Varmint Special 25.06 at a local gun show in Lloydminster. Weight didn't bother me, and could it ever shoot the lights out, including smallest group of my life, 1/8" at 100 yds.
The fancy custom rifle has been a Safe Queen ever since.
Point being: Unless you're after bragging rights, go for a gun you won't be reluctant to use and abuse. A great deal of the cost of a custom rifle is in the stock, select grade, and a helluva lot of work to finish it. But in the end, for all that money it's no less vulnerable or fragile than one off the shelf for $1000.
Cooper, for example, builds some supremely accurate rifles with synthetic stocks, as does Jerrett and others. Durable fiberglass/graphite/Kevlar stocks that are a big step up from most standard brands, properly fit and bedded. Use 'em for years, and...with reasonable care...not have it show at the end of the day. Forbes even goes so far as to serialize each stock to each action that it's fit to in order to maximize accuracy.
And considerably less money laid out up front!
Think long term before jumping. Custom rifles in beautifully crafted stocks can be like works of art...and that can be a problem.
FWIW.
I have a couple customs that I like a lot but don't feel the value is going up if I were to sell. today I could get more for my cooper than I paid for it. customs are a a good deal if your keeping for the long haul, a $ loss if you want to flip quickly. higher end factory rifles hold there value well.
Given the accuracy of even mid range factory rifles today, the only thing a custom rifle is going to give you is aesthetics, really. In the process of getting these beautiful aesthetic improvements you will drop 5-10K and have a rifle with about the same resale value as a nice Remington, that doesn't shoot any better than an off the shelf Rem/Win/Sako. Don't get me wrong I love a beautifully built rifle whether custom built, semi-custom or factory, but then I also hot rod and understand that I will never recoup my investment. I do this for me and me alone. I don't know about you, but for me, in a hunting rifle, I will not pay 5K for a rifle that will shoot 1/2" groups over a 1K rifle that shoots 1" groups, so it had better have an outstanding piece of wood beautifully executed to attract my attention at 5K+ or have 2 barrels soldered together side by side.
RMR rifles are massively over priced in my opinion, and for what? A synthetic stock, a reworked action and a fancy name barrel that won't shoot any better than a 257 Wby 700 Rem CDL SF, I have, that shoots 110 gn ABs into 1/2" 4 shot group any day I'm doing my part, and it is a very nice looking rifle which I'm not afraid to take afield as I paid $1099.00 for it brand new. I do not know where a custom can improve on that, oh sure, a fancier stock maybe, but really the stock is nice and if I wanted I could restock it like I did my Sako A IV Safari.
Given the accuracy of todays rifles and ammunition a custom rifle is a piece of art and it's value is totally subjective. If you want a piece of art to put in a showcase and show off to your buddies, that is entirely up to you. But if you value your money and want a good solid rifle to hunt with you'd be hard pressed to find a better value than a Winchester Supergrade, if you're a CRF, wood man.
RMR rifles are massively over priced in my opinion, and for what? A synthetic stock, a reworked action and a fancy name barrel that won't shoot any better than a 257 Wby 700 Rem CDL SF, I have, that shoots 110 gn ABs into 1/2" 4 shot group any day I'm doing my part, and it is a very nice looking rifle which I'm not afraid to take afield as I paid $1099.00 for it brand new. I do not know where a custom can improve on that, oh sure, a fancier stock maybe, but really the stock is nice and if I wanted I could restock it like I did my Sako A IV Safari.
Given the accuracy of todays rifles and ammunition a custom rifle is a piece of art and it's value is totally subjective. If you want a piece of art to put in a showcase and show off to your buddies, that is entirely up to you. But if you value your money and want a good solid rifle to hunt with you'd be hard pressed to find a better value than a Winchester Supergrade, if you're a CRF, wood man.
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Thanks for all your answers/input to my question. I had mentioned in my previous post that my experience with higher end rifles had stopped at the Sako level. Ive owned a few of Sako's over the years, and I was considering the "next step up" in a nice hunting rifle. As much as I appreciate fine wood and blued guns, I generally lean towards something more composite, SS or coated guns. Not because I don't take care of my guns, but if I ever marked up a fine piece of walnut, I'd be pissed at myself. So that's were I was going with regards to my custom vs factory rifle question, and you fellas have answered my question. I think a factory option is best for me as I don't need any custom fitting,caliber, engraving, etc, just a fine factory rifle in a "insert caliber here" will work for me. Thanks again fellas!
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- Steel Town and The Peg
A gun IMHO is a personal tool, not an investment. I now buy "for life" and I drop my coin on customs or semi-customs just about every single time. There's no perfect out-of-the-box factory rifle, including the premium brands--trust me. Treat yourself to something built to your spec by a reputable gunsmith and the concept of "resale value" won't even be on your horizon. The only negative is that the good smiths are busy and you'll have to be patient.
Why Not? 's sig line says it best: "Not taking a rifle out hunting because it has lovely wood, fine checkering and well-executed metal work, is like refusing to marry and enjoy a gorgeous woman because she will get old and wrinkled. "
The only reasons not to have a custom rifle built boil down to time and money. You will have to be patient, sometimes very patient, and it will cost more, but in the end you should be able to get exactly what you want in a rifle. (Sometimes you get the rifle the gunsmith wants). For me part of the enjoyment of the hunt comes from using a classy, well groomed firearm.
The only reasons not to have a custom rifle built boil down to time and money. You will have to be patient, sometimes very patient, and it will cost more, but in the end you should be able to get exactly what you want in a rifle. (Sometimes you get the rifle the gunsmith wants). For me part of the enjoyment of the hunt comes from using a classy, well groomed firearm.
Sad, I wouldn't hunt with a wood stocked firearm unless the wood is exceptional, therefore the cost is very high and usually why I opt for synthetic instead as high quality/grade wood adds thousands to the cost of the same rifle
I sold or traded my custom rifles as I prefer my 85 Finnlight. Nothing wrong with the custom rigs, but just not the right rifles for me. And, I don't believe the custom prices reflect what you get back. Not impressed with RMR after repairing a few problems for some buddies, and definitely not impressed with Fierce. There are some good custom smiths, but I feel a few of the big names are trying to coast on past success and name alone as it seems quality is going down while prices go up.
