- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
a 230? Where'd you get that?
How big is too big? Too much gun?
- Thread starter John Y Cannuck
- Start date
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
Caliber?
It's true, that a well placed shot, will equalize a lot of Cartridges, as far as the kill is concerned.
But, what of the secondary target?
What of damaged meat?
Why do you need it if you only hunt short range?
Onthe other hand, what if you are presented with a quartering away shot?
What about a long shot?
How about for that armour plated deer?
It's true, that a well placed shot, will equalize a lot of Cartridges, as far as the kill is concerned.
But, what of the secondary target?
What of damaged meat?
Why do you need it if you only hunt short range?
Onthe other hand, what if you are presented with a quartering away shot?
What about a long shot?
How about for that armour plated deer?
About 90% of my deer got shot with a 9.3x64 and it is my favorite rifle to hunt with.Those deer look a lot better than what i've seen done with the various 7mm and 30 Mags.I do have to agree that the right bullet makes all the difference of having Goulash or a nice steak.
Meat damage happens when bullets travel/spin very fast and throw off chunks of fragmented metal, AND when they plow big ol' temporary wound channels through the shock of passing through watery tissue. Note that this 'meat damage' effect also tends to pulp heart and lung tissue that it passes through.
Large caliber cartridges do not damage more meat than small caliber cartridges. Usually, it is the very fast small caliber rounds--.270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, etc.--that are the worst offenders. Note that these cartridges are also frequently called out for being fast killers.
Large caliber and/or slow projectiles tend not to waste much meat. One exception is shotgun slugs, which are often made of very soft lead and can fragment like crazy inside a soft body.
[/meat damage lekshur]
Thing is, most deer just don't take much killing. That's why the thutty thutty just keeps poking along. It's great for deer and black bear at the ranges that most hunters out east usually encounter them, and anything bigger (read: faster) would just burn more powder and damage more meat unnecessarily.
But it's not just about 'killing power', it's also about trajectory.
Out here in central Alberta, a .30-30 would be marginal. I got two shots this year and took home two spike bucks, both at roughly 150 yards, but I spent a lot of time getting those shots. Most deer I saw were 250 yards or more. The only big racks I saw were 400+ yards, and moving fast. I was using a .260 Rem but found myself wishing for my 7mm STW a couple of times...
The .270 and 7mm Rem Mag are just about perfect for 'out west', but don't make a lot of sense out east. I used to hunt a stretch of hills in southern Vermont where even a .30-30 seemed like overkill. The longest shots you'd see were around 60 feet, and it was all about speed of bringing the gun to your shoulder. I hunted with an old guy who used a .35 Rem but downloaded it to the point where it was barely supersonic. Perfect for the Connecticut river valley, but in the country around Edmonton about as useful as a blowgun.
So how big is too big? Well, show me your hunting conditions, show me the deer you're after, and show me your ability to make heart/lung shots and I'll tell you;-)
Large caliber cartridges do not damage more meat than small caliber cartridges. Usually, it is the very fast small caliber rounds--.270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, etc.--that are the worst offenders. Note that these cartridges are also frequently called out for being fast killers.
Large caliber and/or slow projectiles tend not to waste much meat. One exception is shotgun slugs, which are often made of very soft lead and can fragment like crazy inside a soft body.
[/meat damage lekshur]
Thing is, most deer just don't take much killing. That's why the thutty thutty just keeps poking along. It's great for deer and black bear at the ranges that most hunters out east usually encounter them, and anything bigger (read: faster) would just burn more powder and damage more meat unnecessarily.
But it's not just about 'killing power', it's also about trajectory.
Out here in central Alberta, a .30-30 would be marginal. I got two shots this year and took home two spike bucks, both at roughly 150 yards, but I spent a lot of time getting those shots. Most deer I saw were 250 yards or more. The only big racks I saw were 400+ yards, and moving fast. I was using a .260 Rem but found myself wishing for my 7mm STW a couple of times...
The .270 and 7mm Rem Mag are just about perfect for 'out west', but don't make a lot of sense out east. I used to hunt a stretch of hills in southern Vermont where even a .30-30 seemed like overkill. The longest shots you'd see were around 60 feet, and it was all about speed of bringing the gun to your shoulder. I hunted with an old guy who used a .35 Rem but downloaded it to the point where it was barely supersonic. Perfect for the Connecticut river valley, but in the country around Edmonton about as useful as a blowgun.
So how big is too big? Well, show me your hunting conditions, show me the deer you're after, and show me your ability to make heart/lung shots and I'll tell you;-)
John Y Cannuck said:What do you figure is too much gun for deer?
I think *** went a bit overboard with the 50 BMG
Of course, lesser cartridges can also mess up a lot of meat with the wrong bullet, or a bone hit.
Lets hear your story
IMO, when you get into the mags it's going overboard, but it's best to have too much than not enough. A 30-30 is OK for short range, but even at 100 yards I'd want a little more.
My friend shot two bull moose this year with a 7 mm Mauser. He hit one in the lungs, went down OK, the big one got hit in the shoulder, which resulted in a two hour tracking job and we would have lost it if not for some snow. He won't take that gun again even if it is nice to carry.
- Location
- Central Sask
i use 200 grn nosler partitions in my 300 ultra mag on deer and there is minimal
meat damage. i dont think its to much gun cause i quite often have long shots at deer. I would use a 50 Bmg if i could afford one
meat damage. i dont think its to much gun cause i quite often have long shots at deer. I would use a 50 Bmg if i could afford one
I would suggest that the results are what matter. A .300 WM with a 'varmint' bullet hitting a deer's rear at 50 yds ain't gonna be pretty. To each his own, and with his own judgement for his skill and circumstances. What do I care that somebody has to find something out the hard way? Sometimes .38-55 is the right answer, sometimes not. But I'm not going to tell you that the 7mm SAUM isn't right for you based on MY criteria.
BIGREDD said:
X2
no such thing as "too big". I agree that the power of magnums is not always needed for deer, but hey, sometimes the power of the 30-30 is also not all needed. Really depends of the distance, shot placement and bullet construction. Knowing your rifle and be confortable with it is more important then the caliber used so if you feel ok with your 300wsm that's the one to go with, is you feel better with your .270win, then .270win it is.
.50cal black powder is ok but magnums are not? Shotguns are ok but again, magnum is too much? My biggest deer was shot at 245yds with a 7MMRM, broadside shot, not more meat loss then with my .308. Might have been worst if I had hit the shoulder but it wasn't the case.
A dead deer is a dead deer, if I can drop one with my 45-70, I will and am pretty sure the meat dammage will not be that bad. Shot a doe with my black powder .50cal with 300gr partition bullet and made a 3" wide hole in the chest, again, no meat loss.
Danny Boy said:
I agree that the .270 is a good choice for deer but I don't know why a .270 would be ok but a 308 would not, and how could a .308 or 300wm promote sloppy habits? Could you explain?
Good thread
As alot of you have stated, it's not so much what caliber as it is shot place ment or bullet choice. I think it's more a case of, what's too much gun for the hunter. I have a friend, not a big guy, who was deadly with a .308. When he went to a 7mm mag his shooting went downhill and his shot placement often ruined alot of meat.John Y Cannuck said:What do you figure is too much gun for deer?
I think *** went a bit overboard with the 50 BMG
Of course, lesser cartridges can also mess up a lot of meat with the wrong bullet, or a bone hit.
Lets hear your story
If you can shoot it, use it.
I have a .338 Win Mag or a 30/06 for pretty much every thing I hunt. I did however pick up a 6mm Remington that I am going to give a try for deer this fall. I tend to get comfortable with a rifle and it doesn't really matter to me what the caliber is as long as I shoot it well.
powder burner
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta, Canada
when you anticipate recoil and not concentrate on hitting your target.
Gibbs505 said:
This makes a lot of sense to me. WIth the addition of the amount powder behind it.
I shot a wt buck with my .308 last year (165 grain Interbonds) at 150 yds in the liver and he took off so I give him another at 160 yds in the lungs and he dropped.
My point is this, when I got to him I thought back to all of the deer I've taken with my .30-.30 and never once wondered if I didn't have the right rifle. When the bullet hit it usually dropped it with an audible whoomp.
My .308 on the other hand (and maybe it was me just getting used to the .308 after shooting a .30-.30 for 20 years) seemd like it had way too much jam for the ribs that I was shooting at.
I shoot 39 grains of 3031 and have to wonder if I toned my load down to say 30 would it be a satisfactory load for deer if I had to punch through a shoulder?
The actual caliber.308 is not too much for deer. Maybe my load was.
One other factor which I have been wrestling with concerning choice of deer gun, is the amount of time that you have to hunt. I have family and work obligations which limit my hunting time That means fewer chances at bucks, all things being equal. And the chances I do get at a good buck have to count. I have a beautiful 30-30 marlin that shoots sub MOA with Barnes X handloads, and is deadly on any deer within its effective range. But in my opinion, asking it to shoot beyond 150 yds and reliably knock down a 250+ lb buck every time even under less than optimal conditions, is in my opinion asking too much.
Those hunters that have the time to pass longer and more marginal shots can find great utility in the milder calibers. It bothers me a bit not to be able to carry my 30-30 as my woods rifle right now, but I know that the .280 Rem carbine I am building will have greater range, as well as greater ability to punch through bone and flesh on marginal shots or through obstacles, using stoutly constructed bullets with high sectional density. With my limited time I may only get one or two chances at a buck I want to harvest. Whether he is at 30 yds or 300, I have to have the capability to take advantage of that opportunity. Some woods hunting in New Brunswick is still jungles of tight cover, but with so much woods harvesting, the clear cuts adjacent to the woods present long shot opportunities. Likewise power lines, gas lines, snowmobile trails and logging roads all present opportunities for 300+ yd shots. I shot my last moose on a snowmobile trail at an honest 300 yds. There was no chance to get him any other way, nor was there any chance to stalk him. Yes I used a magnum, and I flattened him. I think magnums have their place, but there are many good non-magnums which have the capability to shoot over 300 yds.
I would also like to point out the difference between the capability to take advantage of a marginal shot opportunity, and actually doing it. I do not advocate unethical shots (who does ) but would like to have the option to try if I feel it is a reasonable shot to take.
I try to avoid long or marginal shots where I can, but when you have limited time in the field, you sometimes don't have the luxury of saying "I'll get you next time. I hope to hunt that way someday (with my trusty 30-30 ) when my life is less hectic, but until that happens, I have to make lemonade
That means fewer chances at bucks, all things being equal. And the chances I do get at a good buck have to count. I have a beautiful 30-30 marlin that shoots sub MOA with Barnes X handloads, and is deadly on any deer within its effective range. But in my opinion, asking it to shoot beyond 150 yds and reliably knock down a 250+ lb buck every time even under less than optimal conditions, is in my opinion asking too much.Those hunters that have the time to pass longer and more marginal shots can find great utility in the milder calibers. It bothers me a bit not to be able to carry my 30-30 as my woods rifle right now, but I know that the .280 Rem carbine I am building will have greater range, as well as greater ability to punch through bone and flesh on marginal shots or through obstacles, using stoutly constructed bullets with high sectional density. With my limited time I may only get one or two chances at a buck I want to harvest. Whether he is at 30 yds or 300, I have to have the capability to take advantage of that opportunity. Some woods hunting in New Brunswick is still jungles of tight cover, but with so much woods harvesting, the clear cuts adjacent to the woods present long shot opportunities. Likewise power lines, gas lines, snowmobile trails and logging roads all present opportunities for 300+ yd shots. I shot my last moose on a snowmobile trail at an honest 300 yds. There was no chance to get him any other way, nor was there any chance to stalk him. Yes I used a magnum, and I flattened him. I think magnums have their place, but there are many good non-magnums which have the capability to shoot over 300 yds.
I would also like to point out the difference between the capability to take advantage of a marginal shot opportunity, and actually doing it. I do not advocate unethical shots (who does
) but would like to have the option to try if I feel it is a reasonable shot to take.I try to avoid long or marginal shots where I can, but when you have limited time in the field, you sometimes don't have the luxury of saying "I'll get you next time. I hope to hunt that way someday (with my trusty 30-30
) when my life is less hectic, but until that happens, I have to make lemonade
- Location
- Hillbilly shack in the boonies
if you get less than 50 rounds out of a lb of powder , you got too much gun
