How can you know if a bolt action shotgun is dangerous?

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Spiders

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I have a remo popular shotgun, bolt action 12 ga, I haven't found much info on them. I inherited it from an old friend who packed it while salmon fishing up north.
Anyhow, why are people saying it looks dangerous?
Looks sound to me, I have fired it, never lost my face.
Should I just stick to shooting light loads?
 
Haha, no. More like there's not much of a bolt lug. How much does a shotgun really need? I see idiots on YouTube shooting co2 cartridges out of modified 12ga shells, using welded gas pipe as the gun....... Seriously?
 
The only one, I'm aware of that is actually dangerous was a JC Higgins model, made for Sears many years ago, they still have a recall in effect on them. Bolt action shotguns don't require the heavy locking lugs that rifles do, a 12ga 3" shotgun only operates on pressures up to 11,500 psi and 14,000 in the case of 12ga 3 1/2". Considerably less than a 22LR. Most usually lock-up on the bolt handle itself.

That having been said, a Remo Popular is a converted Mauser 98 to a 2 shot shotgun, to do so required enormous amounts on metal being removed, and with it a lot of strength. Whereas, after an inspection by a qualified gunsmith, yours may be safe to shoot, general consensus is that these are usually considered a wall hanger and should not be shot. Some had short chambers, some had quality issues(corners cut to save money).
 
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A shotgun doesn't need much of a lug compared to a rifle. If you look at the max chamber pressure for a 3" 12ga, it lists the max pressure as 11,500, then when you compare that to like a .308 at 62,000 a 30-30 at 42,000 or even a 22lr at 24,000 then you get a sense of how much of a recoil lug a shotgun would need vs a rifle.
 
One thing to check, though, all other factors aside, it to ensure you can fire 2 3/4 out of it. Some old shotguns (a lot of European ones I've come across) are chambered for 2 1/2". Some were apparently 2 9/16". That being said, once you know the chamber length, you can always reload with BP or Pyrodex if you are worried about smokeless. I did it for years for some old Damascus-barrel guns I had.
 
Maritime Storm said:
I missed the part where he mentioned it was a Remo Popular, these were old converted military rifles.
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I thought it was a typo error myself.
Not having seen many bolt action shot guns, save for pictures of the Browning A-bolt shotgun that is.

What have you ( Spiders ) heard about this alleged danger factor in owning this shotgun, cause I have no idea to what the real issue is?
You mention bolt lug , but does that mean thats the only issue people can come up with and thus claim it dangerous or unsafe??

Rob
 
Spiders;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust this finds all well in your world.

Is this the model we're discussing?

As already noted, check that the chamber is the right length first off.

If that's correct then I'd make sure the bore isn't too, too rough as that can raise pressures too.

Lastly we'll check that the locking lug - the root of the bolt handle in this case and the receiver are making good contact when a shell is chambered. Here we can put something as simple as felt pen or even lipstick on the bearing surfaces, do a function check and then see what's been worn off. This method works for ensuring the lugs on a bolt action rifle are bearing equally too.

Anyway if those criteria check out, I'd then tie it to a bench, put a 20' lanyard on the trigger, throw an old Carhartt jacket on top and fire a few test rounds. If the shells coming out look okay - no weird bulges in the brass base, no primers backing out, no split hulls - then you're most likely fine.

Hope that made sense and was helpful sir. Good luck with the shotgun whichever way you decide.

Dwayne
 
The older the gun less I would trust it, they did not have the metallurgy back then, most old guns can not shoot the modern loads, all shoot a lighter loads, why risk it,
 
Grock-co said:
The older the gun less I would trust it, they did not have the metallurgy back then, most old guns can not shoot the modern loads, all shoot a lighter loads, why risk it,
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I would definitely not shoot high brass 2 3/4 mags out of it, but if all else s OK, after a few test fires, I would not be afraid to use it with light loads. A BA shotgun would not be that practical on ducks and geese, and at its age, I would definitely not put steel through it.
 
Thanks for the insight guys!
The gun does seem to have a locking lug separate from the bolt handle itself. As far as I can tell they both make contact.
As for what I have heard, basically ''it is old, doesn't look safe, where's all the locking lugs" and escalates to telling me the bolt is gonna let go.
The chamber and bore look great, better than some modern shotguns I have had.
As for chamber length... Guilty, I have no idea. How would one measure that?

Once again I'll bring up these pipe shotguns, how can someone convince me they're safer than my shotgun? Just out of curiosity.

And bc30cal, yeah that's it exactly! Mine isn't as pretty though.
 
Spiders said:
Thanks for the insight guys!
The gun does seem to have a locking lug separate from the bolt handle itself. As far as I can tell they both make contact.
As for what I have heard, basically ''it is old, doesn't look safe, where's all the locking lugs" and escalates to telling me the bolt is gonna let go.
The chamber and bore look great, better than some modern shotguns I have had.
As for chamber length... Guilty, I have no idea. How would one measure that?

Once again I'll bring up these pipe shotguns, how can someone convince me they're safer than my shotgun? Just out of curiosity.

And bc30cal, yeah that's it exactly! Mine isn't as pretty though.
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The pipe shotguns are not safe. That's how. Lol
 
dand883 said:
A shotgun doesn't need much of a lug compared to a rifle. If you look at the max chamber pressure for a 3" 12ga, it lists the max pressure as 11,500, then when you compare that to like a .308 at 62,000 a 30-30 at 42,000 or even a 22lr at 24,000 then you get a sense of how much of a recoil lug a shotgun would need vs a rifle.
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Wouldn't the force on the lugs be the area of the chamber multiplied by the chamber pressure? If that's the case, then the backwards force on the lugs would be something like 5,000lbs for the shotgun, 4,000lbs for the 30-30, and 900lbs for the .22

That seems like a lot of recoil force, but then you have to factor in Newton's law to figure out why you haven't broken your shoulder. My engineering classes were much too long ago to remember how to do that lol
 
Spiders;
Good afternoon sir and thanks for the reply.

As a semi-old guy, I remember lots and lots of bolt action shotguns being around and in fact my first one was a Lakefield Mossberg .410 bolt action. No they aren't as fast to operate as a pump gun, but that didn't stop me from shooting a lot of ducks and grouse with that little shotgun.

Anyway if it wasn't a bolt action I'd suggest the easiest way to measure the chamber length is with the tail of a digital caliper and a good flashlight. This guy has made up a bit of a gauge and while I've not tried his method it looks feasible.


Again I hope that was useful and good luck with your shotgun.

Dwayne
 
VanMan;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope the day is as bright and clear down at the coast as it is here in the Okanagan this afternoon.

One of the things to take into account when calculating pressure as it pertains to locking lugs is that it's not all rearward force we're dealing with. If it was then you are correct in that the locking lugs wouldn't be enough to contain it. Upon firing the case expands outward and transfers some of the force radially outward.

I recall reading where a gunsmith/experimenter lubed a rifle case so all the force would be rearward and indeed it did lead to a catastrophic failure of the action.

Anyway just to muddy the waters and all that. All the best to you this fall - may all your cases and chambers remain clean and dry.

Dwayne
 
Hi Dwayne,

Thanks for that explanation, I love learning new stuff here on CGN, and there's always that gap between theoretical formulas and what happens in real life lol

It's a wet weekend, so pretty normal for Vancouver in the fall :)

BC30cal said:
VanMan;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope the day is as bright and clear down at the coast as it is here in the Okanagan this afternoon.

One of the things to take into account when calculating pressure as it pertains to locking lugs is that it's not all rearward force we're dealing with. If it was then you are correct in that the locking lugs wouldn't be enough to contain it. Upon firing the case expands outward and transfers some of the force radially outward.

I recall reading where a gunsmith/experimenter lubed a rifle case so all the force would be rearward and indeed it did lead to a catastrophic failure of the action.

Anyway just to muddy the waters and all that. All the best to you this fall - may all your cases and chambers remain clean and dry.

Dwayne
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Wouldn't the fact that you've got an open part (the barrel) mean that the pressure exerted on the other parts (chamber walls, bolt face) would be even lower than simply calculating for the entire surface area of the chamber?
 
The Remo was a purpose built bolt action shotgun. The Geha was a contemporary. The Geha was made by converting G98 rifles.
 
Suther said:
Wouldn't the fact that you've got an open part (the barrel) mean that the pressure exerted on the other parts (chamber walls, bolt face) would be even lower than simply calculating for the entire surface area of the chamber?
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Suther;
Good evening to you sir, I see that you likely had a wet weekend too, but I hope otherwise it was a good one for you.

As I understand it, yes you're correct in your statement.

All that taken into account, it still does create pressure and a shotgun barrel is relatively thin so a stuck wad can result in a split barrel.

There used to be a good sized gun shop in Spokane called the Gunatorium - on Argonne Street - that had a whole row of blown up and split shotgun barrels of different makes. That and their collection of Sharps and Spencer rifles as well as the big selection of Colt revolvers on the walls made the trip worthwhile even if you didn't buy anything.

Anyway I'm no engineer or trained gun smith for that matter, just a guy who has spent a lifetime fixing broken mechanical things - guns included.

All the best to you all in the upcoming week and good luck to any of you out there that hunt too.

Dwayne
 
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