How Critical is 30-30 Case Length for Reloading

Henry Nierychlo

Henry Nierychlo

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I've got some 30-30 brass that is not up to spec on case length. They are a little short. They are at 1.990 now. I know that it's not good if they are too long after sizing, but these are short. They will be loaded with 110 gr half-jackets and 160 gr soft round nose. I will be using them in a Winchester Model 94 levergun.
If someone has some good advice, I would really appreciate it.
Regards, Henry
 
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brass length

are your brass short of the maximum case length or short of the trim to length measurement??? If it is short of the trim to length it is okay as they will probably grow the next time you size them. If they are just shy of the maximum case length you are fine as well but they will probably need trimming the next time you size them.
 
senior said:
More important there all the same length as most 30-30s should be crimped!
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Sorry, Oldtimer, I totally poo-poo that idea. Never crimped any of mine, and I have never had any set-backs or ignition issues. But there is nothing wrong with crimping, but like suspenders, if you are doing it right they aren't necessary:).

OAL on 30-30 brass is important in leverguns (and single shots), as you lack the camming action of bolts, and they will not chamber if the brass is too long. That also goes for the shoulders. I have heard of fellows getting custom chambers on refinished 30-30`s that have to have their dies machined back a thou` or two to bump the shoulder. I have no idea what this accomplishes, but they say brass nowadays is made oversize for sloppy chambers. Again I say `BAAH`.
 
rem338win said:
Sorry, Oldtimer, I totally poo-poo that idea. Never crimped any of mine, and I have never had any set-backs or ignition issues. But there is nothing wrong with crimping, but like suspenders, if you are doing it right they aren't necessary:).

OAL on 30-30 brass is important in leverguns (and single shots), as you lack the camming action of bolts, and they will not chamber if the brass is too long. That also goes for the shoulders. I have heard of fellows getting custom chambers on refinished 30-30`s that have to have their dies machined back a thou` or two to bump the shoulder. I have no idea what this accomplishes, but they say brass nowadays is made oversize for sloppy chambers. Again I say `BAAH`.
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Sloppy chambers might overstate the issue, but .30-30 chambers are often generous to ensure reliable functioning with a cartridge that headspaces on the rim. A custom die that bumps the shoulder back slightly, as opposed to one that full length resizes when cranked down to touch the shell holder might extend the brass life quite a bit. The same goes for the .303 Brit. There is so much case stretch that brass won't last many full length resizings before it fails.

I think the decision to crimp or not crimp is rifle dependent. On the pro side, it will prevent bullets from being set back, but it also uniforms bullet pull, and it is unlikely that one would seat a .30-30 bullet out to the lands. If the magazine has a particularly heavy spring you don't have a lot of choice. If the rifle is blessed with a tighter chamber then extra pains for resizing become less important, and there might be a shorter jump to the lands.
 
rem338win said:
Sorry, Oldtimer, I totally poo-poo that idea. Never crimped any of mine, and I have never had any set-backs or ignition issues. But there is nothing wrong with crimping, but like suspenders, if you are doing it right they aren't necessary:).

OAL on 30-30 brass is important in leverguns (and single shots), as you lack the camming action of bolts, and they will not chamber if the brass is too long. That also goes for the shoulders. I have heard of fellows getting custom chambers on refinished 30-30`s that have to have their dies machined back a thou` or two to bump the shoulder. I have no idea what this accomplishes, but they say brass nowadays is made oversize for sloppy chambers. Again I say `BAAH`.
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Well, I started reloading with a lee die set, hammer type you know, and I didn't trim my cases for a good number of years. Never had an issue.
I did learn very quickly however not to forget to solidly crimp a lever gun's ammo.
Now it's true that those die sets don't make for very tight rounds in the first place, and you could blame that for the set backs I had in those days.
However, I now have three different die sets, and I've been through three different presses.
Set back WILL occur if you don't crimp jacketed bullets for a tube fed lever gun. Maybe not, if you just load and shoot them. But under hunting conditions, certainly.
Under those conditions, as Senior said, even factory loads will eventually slip.
The Lee factory crimp die is the best way to get a tight uniform crimp IMO.
 
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I have been working on some 30-30 brass this week as well and I am finding variations in case length from 2.021 to 2.035 on my once fired brass. All were original factory loads. I will be trimming all of the long ones back to 2.026 to 2.028 and will start from there. The short ones will just get fired as is and hope they grow up some day.
I have also noticed a variation in base to shoulder length, as I know this is not as important as it is with a case that headspaces on the shoulder I am concerned about separation. I will re-measure all the cases after I size them and cull the ones that are short.
As far as crimping is concerned I crimp all my loads with a Lee factory crimp die as I to have had factory loads shorten up on me from poor crimps. As far as your 1.990 cases, that is short but still should be OK to fire. Best to load 3 or 4 and try them before loading all them. Let us know how you make out.
257Roberts
 
One thing on case separation.
If your rifle is in decent shape, with little headspace, and you are not pushing the max loads, you should be able to get many many loads from 30-30 brass.
I've never had a separation in 30-30 in close to 30 years of loading it.
How many times can you reload a case?
Well, I don't bother keeping track any more, because it's at least 25 times if you play by the rules and your rifle is in good shape.
 
Someone mentioned lead bullets, and if you do have problems with set back, consider casting bullets. It's fun, and with the solid crimp you get on lead, set back is pretty much a non issue.

One trick to help if you have a problem with set back. If your rifle will shoot neck sized cases, size only the top 2/3 of the neck. That will make damned sure your bullets seat tight.
 
"Someone mentioned lead bullets, and if you do have problems with set back, consider casting bullets. It's fun, and with the solid crimp you get on lead, set back is pretty much a non issue."

Shooting lead in rifles isn't much different then shooting in pistols. Bullet is retained by case neck friction and little to no crimp is applied. I try to just remove the belling around the case mouth.

If you neck size your 30-30 cases only you will extend your case life out considerably as well. Particularily true if you are shooting the Lee Enfield. Doesn't work for autos with floating firing pins. For them best to full length resize to ensure smooth seating of cartridge.

Take Care

Bob
 
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Henry sorry to hijack the thread but this is interesting.
I am sizing and checking 30-30 brass and playing with die adjustments tonight.
What I have found is that there is a lot of difference between my two 94's.
The base to shoulder dimension of my brass as measured with my homemade gauge is .010" difference from my dad's 94 and mine, my dad’s pre64 is longer. I have also found that Winchester factory ammo base to shoulder dimension is .025" shorter than my chamber and some old Dominion ammo is
.052" shorter. My tool measures from the base end of the case to the datum line on the shoulder of the case.
I have also found that the rim thickness of various cases is as much as .005" difference.
I have been adjusting my sizing die with feeler gauges starting at .010" between the shell holder and the die, reducing the space by .002" per step until the shell holder touches the die. I have also found that until you start setting the shoulder back the base to shoulder dimension lengthens by about .003".
I have done this with other cartridges that I reload for and have yet to find as many differences.
I seem to have way to much time on my hands.
Using tape on the head of the case has also revealed some things that I do not want to think about. Like possible headspace issues.
I know it’s been done but how about some 30-30 loads that work using 170gr bullets.
257Roberts
 
Canuck44 said:
"Someone mentioned lead bullets, and if you do have problems with set back, consider casting bullets. It's fun, and with the solid crimp you get on lead, set back is pretty much a non issue."

Shooting lead in rifles isn't much different then shooting in pistols. Bullet is retained by case neck friction and little to no crimp is applied. I try to just remove the belling around the case mouth.

If you neck size your 30-30 cases only you will extend your case life out considerably as well. Particularily true if you are shooting the Lee Enfield. Doesn't work for autos with floating firing pins. For them best to full length resize to ensure smooth seating of cartridge.

Take Care

Bob
Click to expand...

Setback will occur with a tube magazine lever gun if you do not crimp.
 
257Roberts said:
I know it’s been done but how about some 30-30 loads that work using 170gr bullets.
257Roberts
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The Rel 15 load shown below is the most accurate load I've ever fired in one of my rifles. It's too hot for my other rifle.
Use standard cautions when reloading! Back off and work up your load!
This load from Alliant's web site
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Bullet Hornady 170JFP[/FONT]
Case Win
OAL 2.545
BBL Length 24"
Primer Win LR
Powder Rel 15
Weight 34.1gr
Velocity 2330
Pressure (cup) 40,500
 
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Setback will occur with a tube magazine lever gun if you do not crimp.


Certainly true with jacketed bullets. I apply very little crimp to my 30-30 rds meant for my Win 94 when using lead bullets. The issues aren't much different using tubular mags and the issues involving cycling auto rds in a pistol. No crimp on my 9MM, .40 cal or .45acp either.

Recoil using cast is not the issue it is with jacketed rds. 8 - 10 gr of Unique under 150 gr bullet feels like you are shooting a .22lr.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Setback will occur with a tube magazine lever gun if you do not crimp.


Certainly true with jacketed bullets. I apply very little crimp to my 30-30 rds meant for my Win 94 when using lead bullets. The issues aren't much different using tubular mags and the issues involving cycling auto rds in a pistol. No crimp on my 9MM, .40 cal or .45acp either.

Recoil using cast is not the issue it is with jacketed rds. 8 - 10 gr of Unique under 150 gr bullet feels like you are shooting a .22lr.

Take Care

Bob
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my experience says otherwise.
Use no crimp on lead bullets in a 30-30, and they too will slide back under the pressure of the magazine spring, plus recoil, particularly, if you fill the mag completely.
In your first post, you said you don't crimp, now, you say you use a light crimp??
Lead bullets are usually large enough that a light crimp is easily effective enough.
 
John Y Cannuck said:
my experience says otherwise.
Use no crimp on lead bullets in a 30-30, and they too will slide back under the pressure of the magazine spring, plus recoil, particularly, if you fill the mag completely.
In your first post, you said you don't crimp, now, you say you use a light crimp??
Lead bullets are usually large enough that a light crimp is easily effective enough.
Click to expand...

I agree with John here.

I also think the lube used on cast bullets kinda off-sets the large size of the bullet. Maybe it's the slipperyness lets them slip in the case?
 
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