I saw the X-rays, but am wondering how far it can really get? Does anyone have any experience finding bits of lead very far from the wound channel. It seems to me that when quality bullets are coming out 75% or more of the weight they started out the other bits should not make it too far..
How far from the bullet wound channel can the lead really get?
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Quite a distance at any rate. There's a good youtube video of a presentation by an anethesiologist where he talks about treating gunshot wounds. He mentioned a case where a guy was shot once in the chest, with no exit wound, but no bullet was found in his chest. Eventually they noticed a lump in his groin, the bullet had apparently ricoched off of something in his chest and slid down under the skin.
Plus there's all the anecdotes from the military, about guys who get shot in the hip and the bullet fragments and bounces up and shreds their lungs.
He also showed an xray of a man's chest, one bullet in the heart, one in the opposite lung. 9mm hollowpoint fired at close range, dead for sure, right? Nope, bullets penetrated less than an inch into his chest. Close range shot to the heart and the bullet doesn't make it all the way to the heart.
Though, that's with 9mm handguns, rifles tend to get more penetration due to higher velocities.
Plus there's all the anecdotes from the military, about guys who get shot in the hip and the bullet fragments and bounces up and shreds their lungs.
He also showed an xray of a man's chest, one bullet in the heart, one in the opposite lung. 9mm hollowpoint fired at close range, dead for sure, right? Nope, bullets penetrated less than an inch into his chest. Close range shot to the heart and the bullet doesn't make it all the way to the heart.
Though, that's with 9mm handguns, rifles tend to get more penetration due to higher velocities.
I cut out the bloodshot meat, and bone fragments, which have always covered more area than any lead specks in the meat.
I've switched over to leadless bullets for hunting (Hornady being my favourite), still using lead for most target practice.
I've switched over to leadless bullets for hunting (Hornady being my favourite), still using lead for most target practice.
turbo_bird
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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I remember my dad shooting a steer in the forehead with his 7mm and finding bullet fragments in the meat, so fragments went through the head and down into the neck a fair ways. I can't remember what cuts it was in or if it was just in the ground stuff, but now he uses his .284 and shoots from the side.
Kristian
Kristian
I shot a bear at 250 yards with a 180gr 30-06 Winchester Power-Point, entering through the rear left rib, going through the heart, and up the neck to a stop against the skull. He was turning away from me, looking over his right shoulder. The bullet stayed intact but shed lead all the way up the 3' wound channel (more or less, the actual distance covered by the bullet with the bear in that posture is hard to say).
Funny story; my partner, being wiry and agile, got to the kill before I did. He couldn't find any blood, nor exit and entrance wounds. After cutting my tag, we turned it over both ways, and saw nothing. Razzing me he says "Maybe it just fainted cause you scared it". I called him a moron and told him to hold it while I cut the hide. He knelt on it and it made the normal groan under his weight. He took off over the hill while I had my trigger hand holding the muzzle against the bear and the other pulling up against the trigger, not doing anything because there was still a spent cartridge in the chamber. I eventually fell backwards down the hill and somehow got my head wedged in a hole. When I got out and caught my breath I laughed the whole way back to the kill, finding the bleeding to be all internal.
I shot a little white tail buck that a friend had missed when he was an easy shot, and the shot that I was presented with was the deer about 175 yards away with a bit of his spine showing.. He was kind of quartering towards us. I was shooting 7mm 140 grain partitions at over 2800 from a 7x57. I shot through his spine and the bullet turned and went through one hip completely ruining a hind quarter. I had imagined it would go straight through. I was shooting up a fairly large hill, so the bullet had to turn to go down to hit the hip joint. That bullet probably went through 1-1/2 to 2' of deer, then still had enough energy to explode the hip.
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
If you're concerned about lead, why not just pick up some copper bullets?
(I assume you're talking about big game and not varmints)
(I assume you're talking about big game and not varmints)
While lead has been proven to be a nasty substance, the amount you would get from eating game meat is negligible.
Additionally, a lead particle of any size passes through our digestive system relatively unchanged.
[Birds, who "grind" food in their gizzards, are at a much greater risk for lead poisoning.]
While each has to make their own decision, I believe the dangers of lead in a game animal are highly overstated.
Regards, Eagleye.
Additionally, a lead particle of any size passes through our digestive system relatively unchanged.
[Birds, who "grind" food in their gizzards, are at a much greater risk for lead poisoning.]
While each has to make their own decision, I believe the dangers of lead in a game animal are highly overstated.
Regards, Eagleye.
- Location
- Kelowna, BC
Agreed. Trace lead in hunting quantities isn't particularly bad for you.
If you have other sources of trace lead, however, it's worth using copper bullets. No sense doubling up.
That is the plan. I am not really that concerned, I really just wondered what the board members experience was, seeing as there are some published reports saying that lead gets far from the wound. Frankly, I think that a bonded lead bullet that is fairly heavy and at a modest velocity, like a 215 gr woodleigh out of a 303 would give very little lead pollution in the meat. It is mostly just discussion for me, as I have not hunted much in the last few years.
ah ha, that is why it is bad for birds of prey, makes sense.
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- Stuck in the middle with you.
I don't believe birds of prey and vultures grind food up, though I might be mistaken. This website from the Dept of Fish and Game in Arizona is very informative.
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml
X rays: http://www.nps.gov/pinn/naturescience/leadinfo.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669501/
http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?A=2700&Q=452732
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/california_condor_lead.shtml
X rays: http://www.nps.gov/pinn/naturescience/leadinfo.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669501/
http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?A=2700&Q=452732
- Location
- Stuck in the middle with you.
The dangers of lead to humans first came to light as a direct result of the Romans using lead pipes to direct water supplies from aqueducts. Enough damage was done from simply having cool water flowing THROUGH a lead pipe that it attracted attention.
To say that microscopic fragments passing through our strongly acidic digestive tract has little to no effect shows that you may have some more reading to do. I suggest you don't give potentially harmful advice, and may choose to read more on the topic.
My two bits, take it as you may.
To say that microscopic fragments passing through our strongly acidic digestive tract has little to no effect shows that you may have some more reading to do. I suggest you don't give potentially harmful advice, and may choose to read more on the topic.
My two bits, take it as you may.
I read a report about a year ago from a group of researchers in California that used sheep carcasses to simulate lead bullet fragmentation in deer considering they are not that much different in size and density from whitetail deer. The study was done over a couple of years and they had accompanying video and X-rays to show how much lead travelled through the animal. All this was done ahead of when California switched all big game hunting to copper bullets only. Based on the results of hundreds of simulations I was shocked as to how much lead travelled as far as it did from the actually point of entry. If you think that cutting away the meat around the entry/exit wound eliminates all of the lead you would be mistaken. In lots of the x-rays I saw it was typical for small chunks of lead to travel most of the way through other parts of the animal even on rib shots. If shots were taken at a shoulder or other bigger bone masses the lead splattered all over the place. I would agree with some of the other posts in that if you really concerned I would only shoot solid copper bullets.
Hunted with my 257 Weatherby for the first time this year and saw this firsthand. The sierra gameking broke up on a rib and the exit wound had about a 10 inch diameter circle of lead fragments under the skin. Also shot a deer on a quartering toward shot with the 308 once, the bullet entered the chest broke in two and skittered down both sides of the rib cage with two exit wounds under the skin on either side of the rump. Almost no meat damage! You never really know where those things are gonna wind up. I picked up some TSXs and GMX to play with over the summer. If results are positive I'll be going lead free.
Lead travels further than you think. Game shot with a non-lead bullet end up with lead in it due to the butcher either mixing game of grinding your game without cleaning his grinder.
The flowers of lead are small, 1mm in size and are already small enough to be convertered to lead salts by stomach acid. A flower of lead will adhere to tooth enamel and fillings until it is picked off or ground to dust making it even more digestible.
Children are much more susseptible to lead poisoning than older persons.
A considerable portion of lead is left in the field at the site of the kill where it is fed upon by scavengers.
The Nova Scotia Federation of Anglers and Hunters has already implemented a plan which can be viewed at:
www.thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/136664-hunters-federation-takes-aim-at-lead-ammunition
The Provincial federations should take a proactive stance to stop using lead based bullets before being legislated into doing so.
Banning lead shot has produced significant changes in recovery of migratory birds.
Lead in our systems causes reduced mental processes, and lowering IQ's in children.
The flowers of lead are small, 1mm in size and are already small enough to be convertered to lead salts by stomach acid. A flower of lead will adhere to tooth enamel and fillings until it is picked off or ground to dust making it even more digestible.
Children are much more susseptible to lead poisoning than older persons.
A considerable portion of lead is left in the field at the site of the kill where it is fed upon by scavengers.
The Nova Scotia Federation of Anglers and Hunters has already implemented a plan which can be viewed at:
www.thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/136664-hunters-federation-takes-aim-at-lead-ammunition
The Provincial federations should take a proactive stance to stop using lead based bullets before being legislated into doing so.
Banning lead shot has produced significant changes in recovery of migratory birds.
Lead in our systems causes reduced mental processes, and lowering IQ's in children.
