how heavy of a bullet will a 1/9 223 stabilize
- Thread starter grizzly416
- Start date
my CZ has a 9" twist, likes 69 SMK's and 70gr Bergers, won't shoot 75gr Amax's worth crap.
- Location
- Virden, MB
Biggest I pushed out of a 9 twist was a 69g SMK.
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
My 700PS 1-9" great with most bullets up to and including 69gr MK but won't shoot worth a hoot with 75gr AMAX. Stabilizes just fine but won't group.
stevesummit
CGN Regular
- Location
- spruce grove
my savage model 12 with a one in nine handles 80 smk out to 700m easy
bladerogers
CGN Regular
- Location
- South Saskatchewan
I always thought the tighter the twist, the heavier the bullet. Is that not the case? I'd have suspected 1/9 weights to be 55gr and up.
Last edited:
xring_assassin
Regular
- Location
- Rocky Mountain House, Alberta
My savage 10fp 1 in 9 will .75 inch group 75grain a-max at 200 yards. Wonder why that thing will where other people with 1:9 won't??
What load were you guys trying?
What load were you guys trying?
Actually it's the length of the bullet that determines the optimal twist rate, which generally means a heavier bullet.
My Rem700 .223 is a 1:9, I have confirmed this myself. It shoots 77gn SMK's with no problem, it will not stabalize the Hornady 75gn Amax, because these are longer.
The next closest bullet that it will stabalize is the Berger 73gn bullets.
The rifle has a 26 inch bbl and the 77gn SMK's get ~ 2650 fps.
The next closest bullet that it will stabalize is the Berger 73gn bullets.
The rifle has a 26 inch bbl and the 77gn SMK's get ~ 2650 fps.
I have 223s with twists of 1/14, 1/12, and 1/9, and all will stabilize all weights up to and including 60 gr., but only the 1/9 rifle will shoot anything heavier to any degree of accuracy.
The only exception is the 70 gr. Speer which is a short, blunt, hunting bullet designed for the 22-250, and that bullet shoots very well in all my 22s.
The only exception is the 70 gr. Speer which is a short, blunt, hunting bullet designed for the 22-250, and that bullet shoots very well in all my 22s.
I have heard this from several savage owners, a few I know have measured the twist and found it to be 1:8.5 instead of 1:9
When I say my Rem700 with its 1:9 twist does not shoot the Hornady 75gn Amax's well, I am referring to the ones with the red tips, my groups with these are .8 to 1 inch, with the 77gn SMK I get .25 inch groups no problem.
When I looked into the Federal 77gn loads last year, I found they were using 77gn SMK bullets. I see that Nosler now makes a nearly identical 77gn bullet as well.
Pietro Beretta
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Ontario (G.T.A.)
What about an AR-15 16" HBAR 1/9 using 77 gr. FGMM ??? any problems with that?
Quite a few members at range I shoot at have tried 75gr A max bullets in Savage 12 in 1/9 twist and 1/7 twists also remington's with 1/9 twist And no one uses them any more
the 1/7 shot them fair .450 at 100. The Hornady 75gr match HPBT shoot better in all guns. but the sierra's 69 shoot the best all guns. The best bullets are 80gr sierra's in 1/7
are very very good. also the berger 75gr VLD in the 1/9 twist both get in the .250" and at 300 will shoot just under 1" in good conditions.
I have seen many fellows load the big bullets with powders that shoot extreemly well with 50 to 55gr bullets with powders like 4895, benchmark, H 322,win 748,and Varget.
But the only powders we have found to work good with big bullets in .223 are varget, RL 15. and VT 540. Note: the VLD bergers can't jump you must have them on or in lands, sierra's just kissing.
manitou
the 1/7 shot them fair .450 at 100. The Hornady 75gr match HPBT shoot better in all guns. but the sierra's 69 shoot the best all guns. The best bullets are 80gr sierra's in 1/7
are very very good. also the berger 75gr VLD in the 1/9 twist both get in the .250" and at 300 will shoot just under 1" in good conditions.
I have seen many fellows load the big bullets with powders that shoot extreemly well with 50 to 55gr bullets with powders like 4895, benchmark, H 322,win 748,and Varget.
But the only powders we have found to work good with big bullets in .223 are varget, RL 15. and VT 540. Note: the VLD bergers can't jump you must have them on or in lands, sierra's just kissing.
manitou
It is really gun dependent. Your gun might like 75 but your neighbor might not. On thing that was not mentionned at all was how far are you shooting. My 1:9 shoot 75 AMAX under 1 MOA consistently pass 200 yds, but, at 100 it shoots around 2 MOA. Thay won't stabilize at short range.
Lots of trying and testing to determine what your gun will stabilize. Other things to consider is what is your shooting situation, Long range, Short range, plinking or hunting varmint? If you're not looking into long range, well 52 gr are perfect for any situation previously mentionned.
Cheers
Gaetoune
Lots of trying and testing to determine what your gun will stabilize. Other things to consider is what is your shooting situation, Long range, Short range, plinking or hunting varmint? If you're not looking into long range, well 52 gr are perfect for any situation previously mentionned.
Cheers
Gaetoune
Stability is a function of bullet lenght (weight), twist and velocity (RPM).
If bullet is fired in a Mini 14, it is probably seated deeper (less powder, less velocity) and in a shorter barrel (less velocity).
I did the cold weather testing for Savage in the protoype 1:9 barrel. I reported that it would stabalze and shoot the Sierra 80 grain match, if it was loaded full power.
The 75 gr Hornady match hollowpoint is a bit shorter, so would be easier to stabalize. The 75 Amax is longer, and probably would not stabalaize.
In a Mini 14, the velocities are reduced (RPM) so the 68 and 69 would stabalize for sure, and maybe the 75 gr match hollow point.
If bullet is fired in a Mini 14, it is probably seated deeper (less powder, less velocity) and in a shorter barrel (less velocity).
I did the cold weather testing for Savage in the protoype 1:9 barrel. I reported that it would stabalze and shoot the Sierra 80 grain match, if it was loaded full power.
The 75 gr Hornady match hollowpoint is a bit shorter, so would be easier to stabalize. The 75 Amax is longer, and probably would not stabalaize.
In a Mini 14, the velocities are reduced (RPM) so the 68 and 69 would stabalize for sure, and maybe the 75 gr match hollow point.
This is odd...The 77SMK bullets have a longer bearing length than the 75 AMAX... and it could be argued a portion of that exta length of the amax is made up of a plastic tip...I would not be so quick to give up on the amax.
I think alot of shooter overlook the fact the the ogive on these bullets have different designs. The Amax design is a 'secant' design that has a lot less curve from tip to major diameter, as opposed to the 'tangent' design of the SMK, which is considerably more of a gradual curve.
Bullets with the secant design can be a little harder to get to shoot well. Bullet jump can be a significant factor insofar as then tend to be finicky about it.
Also, do not just consider twist when sellecting bullets - barrel length and velocity have their affects on the rotational speed of the bullets too.
Here's a relevant read,
223's
by John Barsness
NOT ALL THAT LONG AGO, the standard rifling twist in .223 Remington barrels was one turn in 12 inches, but a few years ago new rifles started appearing with 1-9 twists. What does all of this mean to the average shooter? To understand that we have to understand the reasons behind the change.
The Nosler Ballistic Tip was one impetus. Prior to the mid-1980's, when the Ballistic Tip was introduced, most shooters saw the .223 as a medium-range varmint cartridge. We considered 300 yards the extreme edge of .223 range; beyond that we needed a .22-250 or .220 Swift.
Now, plastic-tipped bullets (and even other "hard-tipped" bullets) had appeared before. But in .224 bullets the Ballistic Tip radically changed the way we thought not just of bullets but varmint cartridges themselves. Before then there were two kinds of expanding varmint bullets: soft-point and hollow-point. The soft-point expanded reliably at long range (or what we thought was long range), while hollow-points were regarded as more accurate. Unfortunately, to make hollow-points expand reliably on small varmints, the "hollow" had to be larger. This cut down drastically on ballistic coefficient. And even the ballistic coefficient of soft-point bullets wasn't all that great.
Enter the Ballistic Tip. The plastic tip covered a big hollow-point, so not only raised ballistic coefficient but ensured expansion way out there. Essentially the new bullet combined the expansion of soft-point and accuracy of hollow-point varmint bullets - and increased ballistic coefficient over both.
I first shot Ballistic Tips at prairie dogs in the late 1980's. At the time I followed the pretty much standard wisdom of using a .223 for shooting out to 300 yards, especially on calm days, and a larger rifle (in this case a .220 Swift) for shooting beyond 300 yards and in wind. The handload I'd worked up in the .223 used 50-grain Ballistic Tips at around 3400 fps, and accuracy was the best I'd ever gotten from any varmint rifle, well under ½-inch for five shots at 100 yards. During the shoot I found myself using the .223 more and more, and extending the range. Eventually I started shooting prairie dogs at 400 yards, supposedly well beyond the effective range of the .223, because the new bullets not only shot noticeably flatter and very accurately, but expanded violently way out there.
During this same period more people started using the .223 for longer-range target shooting, having made the discovery that yes, recoil does enter into good shooting, and ballistic coefficient combined with velocity is what affects long-range accuracy, not just bullet weight. (Actually some shooters knew this, it just took a long time for the average shooter to get over the notion that bullet weight is the main factor in wind drift.) This meant heavier bullets, which in turn meant faster twists.
Eventually, too, companies started making "deer" bullets in .224 diameter. I am not going to debate the ethics of shooting deer with ".22's" here. However, it is simple reality that the new deer bullets were longer than typical .224 varmint bullets, whether the 55-grain Trophy Bonded, 60-grain Nosler Partition, or 53-grain Barnes Triple Shock.
Eventually, of course, plastic-tipped bullets became the norm for varmint shooting. Almost every company started making them - and plastic-tipped bullets are longer than soft- or hollow-point bullets.
Eventually a sort of Catch-22 for .22's evolved. As more shooters started using longer bullets in .223's, more shooters started using faster rifling twists in their .223 barrels - and more people started shooting longer bullets.
Eventually it was discovered that another piece of long-time conventional wisdom wasn't true, or at least wasn't as true as it used to be. For centuries rifle shooters had been wary of using bullets that were too short for the twist in their barrels. This was because the bullets then became "over-stabilized," and accuracy went downhill. Even in the 1970's many shooting "authorities" warned that 110-grain bullets didn't shoot all that well in .30-06's, because of the dreaded over-stabilization.
This was probably true when those authorities started shooting the .30-06, but by the 1980's most bullets were so well balanced that very short bullets could be shot accurately from twists that were theoretically too fast. One of these well-balanced bullets, of course, was the Nosler Ballistic Tip, which probably also benefited a little from being a little longer than conventional bullets.
My wife and I have three .223's in our house, an older, "conventional" Remington 700 with a 1-12 twist heavy barrel, a Bushmaster carbine with a 1-9 twist, and a semi-custom sporter based on the Remington 788 action, with a sporter-weight E.R. Shaw barrel with a 1-9 twist. The 700 is the rifle that shoved all the .22-250's and .220 Swifts we owned out the door (at least for now; Eileen is thinking of another .22-250 for deer hunting). With the advent of laser range-finders and multi-point scope reticles, the .223 proved fully effective for 500 or even 600-yard prairie dog shooting. Why put up with the recoil of a bigger round if it isn't needed?
But the Bushmaster and the 788 have also proven very accurate with bullets as light as 40-grain plastic-tips. These two rifles can also, however, shoot very long bullets quite accurately, including 60-grain plastic-tips (now available from both Nosler and Hornady), .224 "deer" bullets, or match hollow-points in the 70-grain range. In fact the 788 will put 68-grain BTHP Hornady's into basically the same hole at 100 yards, and that's a very effective bullet for some varmint shooting, especially way out there when the wind blows.
So if you've been nervous about switching to a 1-9 .223, just because you like the way your old .223 shoots those super-fast 40-grain plastic-tips, don't be. A 1-9 will work fine for those too, which is why when the barrel on our old Remington 700 finally goes, the barrel that replaces it will have a 1-9 twist. ###_____________________________________
Ask John Questions About "1-12 vs. 1-9 Twist in
223's
by John Barsness
NOT ALL THAT LONG AGO, the standard rifling twist in .223 Remington barrels was one turn in 12 inches, but a few years ago new rifles started appearing with 1-9 twists. What does all of this mean to the average shooter? To understand that we have to understand the reasons behind the change.
The Nosler Ballistic Tip was one impetus. Prior to the mid-1980's, when the Ballistic Tip was introduced, most shooters saw the .223 as a medium-range varmint cartridge. We considered 300 yards the extreme edge of .223 range; beyond that we needed a .22-250 or .220 Swift.
Now, plastic-tipped bullets (and even other "hard-tipped" bullets) had appeared before. But in .224 bullets the Ballistic Tip radically changed the way we thought not just of bullets but varmint cartridges themselves. Before then there were two kinds of expanding varmint bullets: soft-point and hollow-point. The soft-point expanded reliably at long range (or what we thought was long range), while hollow-points were regarded as more accurate. Unfortunately, to make hollow-points expand reliably on small varmints, the "hollow" had to be larger. This cut down drastically on ballistic coefficient. And even the ballistic coefficient of soft-point bullets wasn't all that great.
Enter the Ballistic Tip. The plastic tip covered a big hollow-point, so not only raised ballistic coefficient but ensured expansion way out there. Essentially the new bullet combined the expansion of soft-point and accuracy of hollow-point varmint bullets - and increased ballistic coefficient over both.
I first shot Ballistic Tips at prairie dogs in the late 1980's. At the time I followed the pretty much standard wisdom of using a .223 for shooting out to 300 yards, especially on calm days, and a larger rifle (in this case a .220 Swift) for shooting beyond 300 yards and in wind. The handload I'd worked up in the .223 used 50-grain Ballistic Tips at around 3400 fps, and accuracy was the best I'd ever gotten from any varmint rifle, well under ½-inch for five shots at 100 yards. During the shoot I found myself using the .223 more and more, and extending the range. Eventually I started shooting prairie dogs at 400 yards, supposedly well beyond the effective range of the .223, because the new bullets not only shot noticeably flatter and very accurately, but expanded violently way out there.
During this same period more people started using the .223 for longer-range target shooting, having made the discovery that yes, recoil does enter into good shooting, and ballistic coefficient combined with velocity is what affects long-range accuracy, not just bullet weight. (Actually some shooters knew this, it just took a long time for the average shooter to get over the notion that bullet weight is the main factor in wind drift.) This meant heavier bullets, which in turn meant faster twists.
Eventually, too, companies started making "deer" bullets in .224 diameter. I am not going to debate the ethics of shooting deer with ".22's" here. However, it is simple reality that the new deer bullets were longer than typical .224 varmint bullets, whether the 55-grain Trophy Bonded, 60-grain Nosler Partition, or 53-grain Barnes Triple Shock.
Eventually, of course, plastic-tipped bullets became the norm for varmint shooting. Almost every company started making them - and plastic-tipped bullets are longer than soft- or hollow-point bullets.
Eventually a sort of Catch-22 for .22's evolved. As more shooters started using longer bullets in .223's, more shooters started using faster rifling twists in their .223 barrels - and more people started shooting longer bullets.
Eventually it was discovered that another piece of long-time conventional wisdom wasn't true, or at least wasn't as true as it used to be. For centuries rifle shooters had been wary of using bullets that were too short for the twist in their barrels. This was because the bullets then became "over-stabilized," and accuracy went downhill. Even in the 1970's many shooting "authorities" warned that 110-grain bullets didn't shoot all that well in .30-06's, because of the dreaded over-stabilization.
This was probably true when those authorities started shooting the .30-06, but by the 1980's most bullets were so well balanced that very short bullets could be shot accurately from twists that were theoretically too fast. One of these well-balanced bullets, of course, was the Nosler Ballistic Tip, which probably also benefited a little from being a little longer than conventional bullets.
My wife and I have three .223's in our house, an older, "conventional" Remington 700 with a 1-12 twist heavy barrel, a Bushmaster carbine with a 1-9 twist, and a semi-custom sporter based on the Remington 788 action, with a sporter-weight E.R. Shaw barrel with a 1-9 twist. The 700 is the rifle that shoved all the .22-250's and .220 Swifts we owned out the door (at least for now; Eileen is thinking of another .22-250 for deer hunting). With the advent of laser range-finders and multi-point scope reticles, the .223 proved fully effective for 500 or even 600-yard prairie dog shooting. Why put up with the recoil of a bigger round if it isn't needed?
But the Bushmaster and the 788 have also proven very accurate with bullets as light as 40-grain plastic-tips. These two rifles can also, however, shoot very long bullets quite accurately, including 60-grain plastic-tips (now available from both Nosler and Hornady), .224 "deer" bullets, or match hollow-points in the 70-grain range. In fact the 788 will put 68-grain BTHP Hornady's into basically the same hole at 100 yards, and that's a very effective bullet for some varmint shooting, especially way out there when the wind blows.
So if you've been nervous about switching to a 1-9 .223, just because you like the way your old .223 shoots those super-fast 40-grain plastic-tips, don't be. A 1-9 will work fine for those too, which is why when the barrel on our old Remington 700 finally goes, the barrel that replaces it will have a 1-9 twist. ###_____________________________________
Ask John Questions About "1-12 vs. 1-9 Twist in
