How Much Accuracy & Precision Do You Really Need?

Tengoo

Tengoo

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Here's a very well-considered discussion on the balance between accuracy/precision and practicality. I know which side of the scale _I_ fall on...and the guys who are determined to wring every bit of 'tack-drivingness' out of their Garand or M305 might want to give it a read.


How Much Accuracy & Precision Do You Really Need?

Please note that I do not mean to imply any criticism...I simply want to serve up some food for thought.
 
This article makes sense from a Military stand point. But the dude who wants to use his M305 to shoot a coyote @ 300yrds, standing there looking at him, is definitely going to be hoping his M305 shoots better than 2 MOA...
 
Well he'll likely be disappointed then.
And having match and standard versions of a few firearms I find myself saving the Match grade for when and if my shooting gets to the point it will make a big difference. Or the days I really feel like concentrating. It would be fair to say there is some improvement in group sizes. After watching an ex Canadian Forces guy shoot well with a pencil barreled AR15 carbine I've realized practice and technique are the key. The HK SL8 would make a nice coyote gun the way it is delivered though. Mine loves 77gr HPBT match ammo.
 
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ive handled the HK SL8, it feels to uncomfortable to me, and the scopes sit too high on them IMO. ..For long range coyotes, i plan on buying a M1A National match...... just waiting for the Canadian dollar to get back into the mid .80-.90 USD range lol may take a while :/
 
I have long felt that the pursuit of accuracy by many shooters was ridiculous. I have seen new shooters come onto this forum and say something along the lines of "I'm looking to buy my first rifle. I don't know what I'm going to do with it, where or how often I'm going to shoot it, or what caliber I should buy. But I know I want it to shoot better than MOA." Pure idiocy.

I have watched threads where new shooters have been recommended to buy (or have bought) highly priced rigs that will require expensive ammunition and also a number of other varied undesireable characteristics (too heavy to carry, or kicks too hard, or whatever) that combined virtually guaranteed that the shooter would rarely use the gun, and probably wouldn't remain a shooter for long. Insane.

I have told people that the absolute best group my Norinco M14S has ever produced is 3MOA. They hang their heads a little for me in sympathy, or look me in the eye and say if it was theirs they would dump it, no way they would accept such poor accuracy in their collection. But if I ring a number of gongs in front of observers without telling them the paper accuracy someone will step forward with a grin and say that's awesome! That should show the people who say M14's aren't accurate guns!

So many shooters seem to have no idea what practical accuracy is.
 
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This is the same line of thinking I had when I bought the m305. You can't have it all, the most accurate m14 rifle are bench queen and not field proof. Of course the farther the target is the more accurate you want your rifle to be so I determined what kind of accuracy I wanted. I did a few tinkering with the rifle, compared everything in MOA and it did improve, but honestly it felt somewhat pointless when I started shooting offhand with it. Weight, stance, balance and so many other things matters just as much if not more than accuracy. In the end, my tightest grouping was 1.5 MOA, I have some 2 MOA there and there but my average is 3 MOA. It doesn't sound much but it's satisfying nonetheless when I hit my targets one after the other offhand. In my case I think it's more about how you are comfortable with the rifle, not how accurate they actually are. Anyway, this is my experience from the m305 journey.
 
Wanting an MOA rifle is perfectly fine if you are going to use it or have the means to buy one. If a guy wants to shoot a Noveske at 50m who am I to judge? It is his money not mine. I almost never shoot at sub 300 any more unless it is a 22/smallbore. My best friend shoots his 338 LM at 100 meters. We are both happy...
 
Even reloading, .308 isn't that cheap. and I want to get my money's worth when I fire it.

When i want to challenge myself, I like shooting target clays. if the gun shoots much over a minute (let alone 3moa giving me a almost 10 inch circle of were it might go) I can't really do that at 300m. because at that point it becomes "was it me that missed? or the gun?"

a 3+ MOA rifle just doesn't fit into my large caliber collection, because for me 400m is viable for hunting with .308 (without a crazy long range rig and tools) and 3 moa is a very wide margin of error when combined with minor ranging errors that could lead to a very inhumanly placed shot.

It was part of the reason I got rid of the Famea 542, as a mid range hunting rifle it wasn't preforming.
 
A great read by the OP! Thanks for that!

I would love to have a nickel for each PM I receive from new M305 owners wanting to build tack drivers out of the factory rigs. :eek: There is a reason I limit what we can do on the FIRST day of my M14 clinic(s). And that is tighten up things to significantly improve the overall fit with MINIMAL $$$ outlay. It's designed that way, to try and keep as much money in your pocket as I can.

Once we get to the rebarreling (more serious $$ outlay) and glass bedding (more effort outlay) with some new stock (potentially more $$) acquisition; then the costs might (big MIGHT) justify the increases in precision. yuk yuk yuk

So final question... what does Tactical teacher shoot when he has a chance to choose from the many, many M14 platforms? Just ask my wife: I only own ONE Norinco with a Citadel .308 barrel and USGI parts. And it's parked in a rescued USGI glass stock.

All my serious .308 work goes to my Accuracy International AX .308 with a Schmiddy PMII, ha ha ha ha ha ha

Okay, seriously now, that's my sponsored rifle. So that's not fair to mislead all of you, but I just could not resist! Yer dicks are still safe. ha ha ha ;)

Accuracy and Precision, huh?

I use my Winnie Model 70 .260 Rem with a Benchmark 6.5mm, 8" twist, Remmy Varmint profile, with VAIS Brake to shoot into 3/4" with boring regularity. That rig is bedded into a McMillan HTG with sniper fill stock in GAP Camo. Good enough for my PR matches!

Seriously now, save your money and buy practice ammo! Hit the gym or trails and work on the real weapon system: YOU! You are a machine! :eek:

Enjoy the addiction, my great friends! :wave:


Barney
 
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LordEvilPepper said:
Even reloading, .308 isn't that cheap. and I want to get my money's worth when I fire it.


a 3+ MOA rifle just doesn't fit into my large caliber collection, because for me 400m is viable for hunting with .308.
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I have no problem with people demanding accuracy when they have a purpose for it and the skills to employ it. If you are getting your money's worth by spending more on quality stuff, that's wonderful. My problem is that accuracy has been hyped as a requirement for all rifles, to the point that unskilled shooters who would have trouble hitting a barn from the inside are debating whether or not a MOA guarantee is good enough for them, or if they should spend the money to get a rifle from a manufacturer with a 0.5MOA guarantee. These people would be better off with an SKS and a crate of ammo, but if you try to tell them that all they can do is quote Townsend Whelen.
 
I love my accurate bolt guns, I am one of those that has spent a lot of time, albeit not that much cash, on making my m14 shoot as well as I can. Which seems to be around 1.5 moa, will it make the 1.5 moa challenge? No I doubt it.
However the more I shoot the more confidence I get with it as being realistically usefully accurate. I would have virtually no problem shooting at any game out to and including 300M with it. Whether it be a coyote or a deer. This is assuming I am shooting from a good stable position and the weather isn't doing anything ridiculous.

I routinely try to cold bore shoot my rifles at a head gong that I have from 300M or more depending on the rifle I am shooting. If I can routinely hit that head gong from those distances from a shooting position I would take that shot in then I am completely satisfied. If I miss, I ask myself why I missed. Most of the time I can blame myself. Not always though, then I figure out what I can change or adjust to make that shot next time.

My m14 is very consistent on this head gong (6"w 9" tall ish) at 300M prone. It is pretty consistent on it at 400M as well but not to the point where I would shoot at a deer at that range. Where as my bolt gun in 243 is very very consistent at 5 and 600M for cold bore hits more or less regardless of weather.

What I am rambling on about is basically to practice, know the limits of you and your gear, and hunt within them.
 
Grizzly Adams said:
In my short Milita career, one of the points made was, better to wound an enemy than kill him. Takes little to dispose of a corpse, wounded tie up all kinds of resources. ;)

Grizz
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This is wrong on so many level. Somebody on the forum made a very long post explaining why but basically the burden of the wounded could be on your shoulder as well. Beside, not a single ex in the military teach you to shoot to wound, it's center of the mass always.
 
In all cases, accuracy comes at a premium. Cheap shortcuts? We are all looking for them!
Use to own a Hart barreled M1A Supermatch. Yep, it was sub MOA with match ammo, but are you going to blast surplus through it?
After awhile the gun became a safe queen. It's a heavy, accurate gun with nowhere to go except a competition.

m1asm.jpg
 
This stubby SEI barrel delivers sub MOA accuracy with Portuguese surplus ammo.
The Blackfeather "RS" keeps everything in place without adding weight.
Accuracy so good that I have a surplus of match ammo just sitting around.

CQB-16.HBA.JPG
 
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