I'm new here, I normally talk about guns on other american forums (like gunboards), but I had some canadian specific questions I didn't know where to ask, until a fellow collector friend pointed told me to post in this forum. Took me a while to find this sub-board, but i think it's the correct one.
Here's some stuff I had typed out (a lot of canadian prices i got in discussion with my friends, so they might not reflect the current market - I'd like your input), and I wanted to know your guys thoughts:
We all know that antiques, by definition, are historical. And being historical, many antique guns will have collector's value based solely on their historical collector's appeal.
At the same time, antique handguns often fetch exorbitant prices in Canada, because of the legal loophole created by 84(3)(a) of the Candian Criminal Code, which allows ownership of antique handguns that aren't regulated like restricted handguns.
For instance re-chambered or modified antiques can often fetch equally high prices in Canada as un-molested guns; while guns that have been recently modified from original condition almost always lose collector's value in countries outside of Canada (American and European markets).
So my question is, how much are values of antique guns in canada inflated solely by the legal "antique status" loophole?
In other words, if the government were to remove antique firearms from the provisions of 84(3) of the Candian Criminal Code and treat antique handguns like normal restricteds, how much value would these different antique handguns lose?
I've been paying attention to recent canadian prices (which seem to have jumped up a bunch the last year), american auctions, and compared with some of my past experiences in american/canadian gunshows, as well talked to several collector friends in the states and in canada.
We came up with a list of the most popular antique handguns in Canada, and ballparked some figures. I've tried to match this up from what i've seen in the American collector's market.
I know there are canadian importers who will buy up antique guns in the states for the purpose for reselling in Canada - and they've definitely affected the market on certain guns down south.
So to make the prices fair, I've taken what i've observed as the market values of their non Canadian antique status equivalents among the collector's market in America.
These are guns in parallel calibers, where one caliber change is the difference between antique/restricted in canada (e.g., 41 Colt vs 38 Colt); or guns that were produced both before and after 1898, leading to some being antique and others restricted (e.g., 1892 French Revolver). I'll often refer to the American collector's market prices, because non-antique versions of certain guns simply don't pop up that often in Canada, or they are classified as prohibs.
Here's what i've come up with. Prices reflect general mechanically functional "shooter quality", so not museum quality pieces nor complete rusted garbage. What do you think?
I would like your input, especially on Canadian prices, since there isn't much good public "completed sales" or auction data out there; I obviously know some examples are comically overpriced like the Mk I** webleys; but the the price ranges for other guns are from ad listings i've seen and what my friends have told me these guns are going for up here. The american prices are based on my impression from completed auctions and american gun shows.
================================
Guns that have significant collector's value independent of antique status; antique status only slightly increases value in Canada (<100% markup over non-antique equivalent)
Colt Single action army in 41 Colt
$3000-$5000+ CAD (?)
The 1st gen 45 colt SAA's go for just as much money if not more than the 41 SAA's, purely due to collectors value. Restricted status from being chambered in 45 Colt or 44-40 doesn't seem to affect original 1st gen Colt SAA collector's; they're buying it because it's a 1st gen Colt, not an in-the-woods shooter.
S&W 44 Russian Single Actions
$2000-$2500 CAD (?)
In America, the 44-40 originals are often worth more than the 44 Russian; around $1500-$2000 USD. Funny enough, in the American collector's market, the SA Model 3s are worth more than the DAs, because they appeal to single-action cowboy shooters. In fact, before repros, some american shooters would shoot original S&W top breaks, and only SA's were allowed in cowboy action shooting. This price discrepancy is reflected in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson and Flayderman's Guide. Flayderman's, though old data, lists 44 NM 3's at $950 USD for VG, and 44 DA's at $750 USD for VG; while in Canada it seems like the double action versions are more desirable and expensive. Additionally non-Antique restricted repros (Uberti, Beretta Laramie) are relatively expensive, ~$1000-$1500 CAD. In America repros cost around $800-$1200 USD.
Webley WGs
$2000-$2500 CAD (?)
Post-1898 Non-Antiques (e.g., Army & Navy CSL marked WG's) seem to go for high prices in America too, due to legitimate collector's interest on both sides of the border.
Guns that have high collector's value, but antique status moderately inflates prices in Canada (~2x markup over non-antique equivalent)
S&W 44 Russian Double Actions
$2000-$2500 CAD
In America, the 44-40 version was worth more than the 44 Russian, normally around $1000-$2000 USD; at least before canadian importers started buying up the 44 russians and drove the prices up. This historical price difference is reflected in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson and Flayderman's Guide (Flayderman's, though old data, lists 44 DA's at $750 USD for VG, and 44-40 DA's at $875 USD for VG).
Colt 41 Thunderer
$1500-$2500 CAD
In America, there is a surprising following around the 38 Colt Lightnings. In mechanically functional condition they run for $800-$1200 USD, though most have mechanical issues, driving the prices down. Post-1898 Thunderers run around the same.
Guns that have moderate collector value, but antique status greatly inflates prices in Canada (2-3x markup over non-antique equivalent)
Webley Mk I, II cut for 45 ACP
2000-$2500 CAD If we compare to a 45 ACP Cut Webley Mk VI or V (Boer War model) in america, those go for $800-1000 USD. Uncut go for $1000-$1500 USD. It's hard to compare in Canadian prices since an original Mk IV Boer War model has a 4" barrel, making it prohib. Note that in Canada, 45 ACP versions often go for the same price as the uncut 455 versions, while in American the original 455 is often worth 50% more
Swiss 1882 Revolver
$1500-$2500 CAD ()?
In America, the non-antiques go for around ~$750 USD. At $800 USD they seem to sit unsold.
Guns that have some collector value, but antique status significantly inflates prices in Canada (Over >3x markup over non-antique equivalent)
Webley Mk I** and II** cut for 45 ACP
$2500-$3500 CAD
If we compare to a 45 ACP Cut Webley Mk VI in america, those go for $600-800 USD. Uncut go for $1000-$1500 USD. I've seen cut webley Mk VI's in Canada go for <$1000 CAD. Let's be honest, the reason the Mk I** is so expensive in Canada is solely due to the reputation is that it is functionally a Mk VI with the ability to take low-pressure factory 45 ACP, while maintaining legal antique status.
Colt 1889/1892 in 41 Colt
$2500-$3500 CAD
In America, Colt 1892's in 38 colt in functional condition can be found $800-$1000 USD. Post-1898 41 Colt 1892s actually seem to go for less money, $600-$1000, since 41 Colt is so hard to come by; while 38 Colt can be reloaded using 38 spl components. Plus 1892 38 Colts tend to have more collector's value in the states since that was the version the US military adopted. Hard to find data for Canadian prices of post-1898 41 colt's.
French 1892 Revolvers
$1500-$2500 CAD
In america, non-antiques go for $400-$600 USD. Restricteds in Canada seem to go for the same amount in CAD. The Standard Catalog of Military Firearms lists "Excellent" condition as $500 USD and "Very Good" as $375 USD . Ones made in 1898 (American antique, but not Canadian antique) seem to fetch $600-$800 USD. Meanwhile Canadian pre-1897 antiques will readily sell at American auctions for >$1200 USD; it seems people are clearly importing them.
Swedish 1887 Nagant
$1500-$2500 CAD
In America, the non-antiques can be found $500-$600 USD all day long. In fact, even the US-only antiques (made in 1898, serial 350 to 3500; so US antique, but not Canadian antique) seem to have a hard time selling at $700 USD. Standard Catalog of Military Firearms lists "Excellent" as $550 USD and "Very Good" as $375 USD
Shooter-grade percussion revolvers
$1000-$2000 CAD (?)
In America, people will buy and shoot repros that cost $200-$400 USD; very few people shoot originals, and only do so sparingly. Original brand name (Colt, Remington, Starr) percussion revolvers have high collector's value; Refinished, "Sporterized" (e.g., conversion cylinders), and no-name brands (Manhattan, Bacon) percussion revolvers are significantly less valuable.
Guns that have no collector value, value in canadian market determined solely by antique status; most would be worthless overnight if 84(3)(a) were repealed (Over x5 markup over non-antique equivalent)
Belgian Bulldogs, RIC copies
$1000-$1500 CAD
Most non-antique belgian bulldogs (either 32 S&W or 38 S&W, or short barrel with post-1893 ELG stamp) are prohibs in canada. In American gunshows they barely sell; you can pick them up easily for $100-$200 USD. Even worse are belgian bulldogs that are modified/refinished/rechambered; they are sold as "wallhangers" for less than $100 in America.
Spur Trigger Suicide Specials
~$500-$1000 CAD
In america, a lot of the 22 short spur trigger suicide specials can be found for $100-$200 USD; cheaper at gunshows. In fact the 22 shorts are more desirable than 32/38/41 rimfires in the states, since they are still shootable with modern 22 CB shorts. The 22 spur triggers suicide specials are prohibs in canada so it is hard to find prices to compare.
Guns that cannot be compared; do not have non-antique equivalent; it is difficult to determine how much value is from collector's interest vs canadian importers buying them to bring up to Canada and resell as antique loophole shooter guns
French 1873 revolver
$1500-$2000 CAD
No good non-antique comparisons, so it is hard to determine collector's value from antique status value. In America they sell for $700-$1000 USD. Note that in America, ones modified or cut for other calibers (45 ACP) or refinished (e.g., nickel plated) are worth significantly less in collector's circles.
1883 Reichsrevolver
$1500-$2000 CAD
No good non-antique comparisons, so it is hard to determine collector's value from antique status value. In America they sell for $800-$1200 USD. Seems like in America there's the "German tax" on these, as german guns of all varieties have high collector's value; meanwhile in Canada the Reichsrevolver is often considered less desirable, likely due to its as inconvenient manual of arms as a shooter.
================================
Now I suspect there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth once the government removes the antique loophole by taking antiques off the 84(3) list. Or even modifies 84(3.1) such antiques are no longer exempted from other provisions of the firearms act. Currently, under 84(3.1), antiques are only regulated in transport and storage, but it would not be hard to tack on a few other provisions removing them from other exemptions of the firearms act.
But if the loophole regarding discharging antique firearms outside of licensed ranges is ever removed, you can bet there will be lots of upset canadian gun owners. Especially among people who own guns from the latter 2-3 categories. Doubly so if they own a modified gun where they intentionally destroyed the historical collector's value to make a convenient caliber (e.g., rechamber) or easier-to-maintain (e.g., renickel) shooter.
On the other hand there will be many happy and eager S&W, Webley, German, and French gun collectors just south of the 49th.
What are your thoughts? Are my value assessments accurate or not? How can they be made more accurate?
Looking forward to seeing your thoughts.
-Northwoods22
Here's some stuff I had typed out (a lot of canadian prices i got in discussion with my friends, so they might not reflect the current market - I'd like your input), and I wanted to know your guys thoughts:
We all know that antiques, by definition, are historical. And being historical, many antique guns will have collector's value based solely on their historical collector's appeal.
At the same time, antique handguns often fetch exorbitant prices in Canada, because of the legal loophole created by 84(3)(a) of the Candian Criminal Code, which allows ownership of antique handguns that aren't regulated like restricted handguns.
For instance re-chambered or modified antiques can often fetch equally high prices in Canada as un-molested guns; while guns that have been recently modified from original condition almost always lose collector's value in countries outside of Canada (American and European markets).
So my question is, how much are values of antique guns in canada inflated solely by the legal "antique status" loophole?
In other words, if the government were to remove antique firearms from the provisions of 84(3) of the Candian Criminal Code and treat antique handguns like normal restricteds, how much value would these different antique handguns lose?
I've been paying attention to recent canadian prices (which seem to have jumped up a bunch the last year), american auctions, and compared with some of my past experiences in american/canadian gunshows, as well talked to several collector friends in the states and in canada.
We came up with a list of the most popular antique handguns in Canada, and ballparked some figures. I've tried to match this up from what i've seen in the American collector's market.
I know there are canadian importers who will buy up antique guns in the states for the purpose for reselling in Canada - and they've definitely affected the market on certain guns down south.
So to make the prices fair, I've taken what i've observed as the market values of their non Canadian antique status equivalents among the collector's market in America.
These are guns in parallel calibers, where one caliber change is the difference between antique/restricted in canada (e.g., 41 Colt vs 38 Colt); or guns that were produced both before and after 1898, leading to some being antique and others restricted (e.g., 1892 French Revolver). I'll often refer to the American collector's market prices, because non-antique versions of certain guns simply don't pop up that often in Canada, or they are classified as prohibs.
Here's what i've come up with. Prices reflect general mechanically functional "shooter quality", so not museum quality pieces nor complete rusted garbage. What do you think?
I would like your input, especially on Canadian prices, since there isn't much good public "completed sales" or auction data out there; I obviously know some examples are comically overpriced like the Mk I** webleys; but the the price ranges for other guns are from ad listings i've seen and what my friends have told me these guns are going for up here. The american prices are based on my impression from completed auctions and american gun shows.
================================
Guns that have significant collector's value independent of antique status; antique status only slightly increases value in Canada (<100% markup over non-antique equivalent)
Colt Single action army in 41 Colt
$3000-$5000+ CAD (?)
The 1st gen 45 colt SAA's go for just as much money if not more than the 41 SAA's, purely due to collectors value. Restricted status from being chambered in 45 Colt or 44-40 doesn't seem to affect original 1st gen Colt SAA collector's; they're buying it because it's a 1st gen Colt, not an in-the-woods shooter.
S&W 44 Russian Single Actions
$2000-$2500 CAD (?)
In America, the 44-40 originals are often worth more than the 44 Russian; around $1500-$2000 USD. Funny enough, in the American collector's market, the SA Model 3s are worth more than the DAs, because they appeal to single-action cowboy shooters. In fact, before repros, some american shooters would shoot original S&W top breaks, and only SA's were allowed in cowboy action shooting. This price discrepancy is reflected in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson and Flayderman's Guide. Flayderman's, though old data, lists 44 NM 3's at $950 USD for VG, and 44 DA's at $750 USD for VG; while in Canada it seems like the double action versions are more desirable and expensive. Additionally non-Antique restricted repros (Uberti, Beretta Laramie) are relatively expensive, ~$1000-$1500 CAD. In America repros cost around $800-$1200 USD.
Webley WGs
$2000-$2500 CAD (?)
Post-1898 Non-Antiques (e.g., Army & Navy CSL marked WG's) seem to go for high prices in America too, due to legitimate collector's interest on both sides of the border.
Guns that have high collector's value, but antique status moderately inflates prices in Canada (~2x markup over non-antique equivalent)
S&W 44 Russian Double Actions
$2000-$2500 CAD
In America, the 44-40 version was worth more than the 44 Russian, normally around $1000-$2000 USD; at least before canadian importers started buying up the 44 russians and drove the prices up. This historical price difference is reflected in the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson and Flayderman's Guide (Flayderman's, though old data, lists 44 DA's at $750 USD for VG, and 44-40 DA's at $875 USD for VG).
Colt 41 Thunderer
$1500-$2500 CAD
In America, there is a surprising following around the 38 Colt Lightnings. In mechanically functional condition they run for $800-$1200 USD, though most have mechanical issues, driving the prices down. Post-1898 Thunderers run around the same.
Guns that have moderate collector value, but antique status greatly inflates prices in Canada (2-3x markup over non-antique equivalent)
Webley Mk I, II cut for 45 ACP
2000-$2500 CAD If we compare to a 45 ACP Cut Webley Mk VI or V (Boer War model) in america, those go for $800-1000 USD. Uncut go for $1000-$1500 USD. It's hard to compare in Canadian prices since an original Mk IV Boer War model has a 4" barrel, making it prohib. Note that in Canada, 45 ACP versions often go for the same price as the uncut 455 versions, while in American the original 455 is often worth 50% more
Swiss 1882 Revolver
$1500-$2500 CAD ()?
In America, the non-antiques go for around ~$750 USD. At $800 USD they seem to sit unsold.
Guns that have some collector value, but antique status significantly inflates prices in Canada (Over >3x markup over non-antique equivalent)
Webley Mk I** and II** cut for 45 ACP
$2500-$3500 CAD
If we compare to a 45 ACP Cut Webley Mk VI in america, those go for $600-800 USD. Uncut go for $1000-$1500 USD. I've seen cut webley Mk VI's in Canada go for <$1000 CAD. Let's be honest, the reason the Mk I** is so expensive in Canada is solely due to the reputation is that it is functionally a Mk VI with the ability to take low-pressure factory 45 ACP, while maintaining legal antique status.
Colt 1889/1892 in 41 Colt
$2500-$3500 CAD
In America, Colt 1892's in 38 colt in functional condition can be found $800-$1000 USD. Post-1898 41 Colt 1892s actually seem to go for less money, $600-$1000, since 41 Colt is so hard to come by; while 38 Colt can be reloaded using 38 spl components. Plus 1892 38 Colts tend to have more collector's value in the states since that was the version the US military adopted. Hard to find data for Canadian prices of post-1898 41 colt's.
French 1892 Revolvers
$1500-$2500 CAD
In america, non-antiques go for $400-$600 USD. Restricteds in Canada seem to go for the same amount in CAD. The Standard Catalog of Military Firearms lists "Excellent" condition as $500 USD and "Very Good" as $375 USD . Ones made in 1898 (American antique, but not Canadian antique) seem to fetch $600-$800 USD. Meanwhile Canadian pre-1897 antiques will readily sell at American auctions for >$1200 USD; it seems people are clearly importing them.
Swedish 1887 Nagant
$1500-$2500 CAD
In America, the non-antiques can be found $500-$600 USD all day long. In fact, even the US-only antiques (made in 1898, serial 350 to 3500; so US antique, but not Canadian antique) seem to have a hard time selling at $700 USD. Standard Catalog of Military Firearms lists "Excellent" as $550 USD and "Very Good" as $375 USD
Shooter-grade percussion revolvers
$1000-$2000 CAD (?)
In America, people will buy and shoot repros that cost $200-$400 USD; very few people shoot originals, and only do so sparingly. Original brand name (Colt, Remington, Starr) percussion revolvers have high collector's value; Refinished, "Sporterized" (e.g., conversion cylinders), and no-name brands (Manhattan, Bacon) percussion revolvers are significantly less valuable.
Guns that have no collector value, value in canadian market determined solely by antique status; most would be worthless overnight if 84(3)(a) were repealed (Over x5 markup over non-antique equivalent)
Belgian Bulldogs, RIC copies
$1000-$1500 CAD
Most non-antique belgian bulldogs (either 32 S&W or 38 S&W, or short barrel with post-1893 ELG stamp) are prohibs in canada. In American gunshows they barely sell; you can pick them up easily for $100-$200 USD. Even worse are belgian bulldogs that are modified/refinished/rechambered; they are sold as "wallhangers" for less than $100 in America.
Spur Trigger Suicide Specials
~$500-$1000 CAD
In america, a lot of the 22 short spur trigger suicide specials can be found for $100-$200 USD; cheaper at gunshows. In fact the 22 shorts are more desirable than 32/38/41 rimfires in the states, since they are still shootable with modern 22 CB shorts. The 22 spur triggers suicide specials are prohibs in canada so it is hard to find prices to compare.
Guns that cannot be compared; do not have non-antique equivalent; it is difficult to determine how much value is from collector's interest vs canadian importers buying them to bring up to Canada and resell as antique loophole shooter guns
French 1873 revolver
$1500-$2000 CAD
No good non-antique comparisons, so it is hard to determine collector's value from antique status value. In America they sell for $700-$1000 USD. Note that in America, ones modified or cut for other calibers (45 ACP) or refinished (e.g., nickel plated) are worth significantly less in collector's circles.
1883 Reichsrevolver
$1500-$2000 CAD
No good non-antique comparisons, so it is hard to determine collector's value from antique status value. In America they sell for $800-$1200 USD. Seems like in America there's the "German tax" on these, as german guns of all varieties have high collector's value; meanwhile in Canada the Reichsrevolver is often considered less desirable, likely due to its as inconvenient manual of arms as a shooter.
================================
Now I suspect there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth once the government removes the antique loophole by taking antiques off the 84(3) list. Or even modifies 84(3.1) such antiques are no longer exempted from other provisions of the firearms act. Currently, under 84(3.1), antiques are only regulated in transport and storage, but it would not be hard to tack on a few other provisions removing them from other exemptions of the firearms act.
But if the loophole regarding discharging antique firearms outside of licensed ranges is ever removed, you can bet there will be lots of upset canadian gun owners. Especially among people who own guns from the latter 2-3 categories. Doubly so if they own a modified gun where they intentionally destroyed the historical collector's value to make a convenient caliber (e.g., rechamber) or easier-to-maintain (e.g., renickel) shooter.
On the other hand there will be many happy and eager S&W, Webley, German, and French gun collectors just south of the 49th.
What are your thoughts? Are my value assessments accurate or not? How can they be made more accurate?
Looking forward to seeing your thoughts.
-Northwoods22
Last edited:
