How much difference does once fired brass make?

Joel

Joel

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Never really took note of this except for one rifle (a Remington 700 308 Heavy barrel) that pretty much always shot the same load well regardles....but how much does it make a difference for you using once fired brass instead of a new case?

More capacity, if minimally resized? Hitting pressure signs faster if not? Pretty much the same, and loading it the same all the time?

What about if you just neck size?

Interested to hear the results!
 
For any of my accuracy or competition needs, I will not bother with serious load development until the cases are fireformed.

If there is a significant difference in shape between new and formed, there is a loss of energy going to changing that case. And likely, there is variation from case to case, that adds another variable that can affect your tune. some cases may not settle down until they have been fired a time or two (depends alot about pressure).

that is not to say that you can't make an accurate load to fireform your brass, you can.... but the final load for the barrel is going to happen after the cases have stretched and settled down.

The more accurate your gear, set up and shooter, the more you will be able to see this downrange.

Now, if you are also dealing with a new barrel, then there will be a 2nd change to tune for.... when the barrel breaks in.

If you have a tighter chamber vs the brass, I would go through the entire neck processing steps to make sure I don't cause any pressure spikes when forming. I do not want to overpressure cases, stretch the web in any way or brass life will be brief.

It's a process and really depends on the platform and how serious you are about creating the best functioning brass.

Jerry
 
Joel said:
Never really took note of this except for one rifle (a Remington 700 308 Heavy barrel) that pretty much always shot the same load well regardles....but how much does it make a difference for you using once fired brass instead of a new case?

More capacity, if minimally resized? Hitting pressure signs faster if not? Pretty much the same, and loading it the same all the time?

What about if you just neck size?

Interested to hear the results!
Click to expand...

A good question - likely varies with what purpose you are using the loads - I was primarily hunting game - so was a thing with me to use only new brass for the hunting loads, although I had shot many work-up and practice rounds with multiple times reloaded - sometimes the brass had started as "new", sometimes was factory fired ammo. I have bought numerous batches of so-called "once fired" brass on CGN - I discovered, especially the "de-primed, tumbled, shiny, re-sized" was often very loose primer pockets - clearly was used a lot more previously, than "once". And I know from target shooting acquaintances that their needs are different - they are most concerned about how close they can get 5 holes together at 100 yards - a different "game" - different needs, I suspect. For me, was usually the very first cold bore shot that mattered - when I hunted with a magazine rifle - out of several dozen deer taken, all except one were taken with the first shot - and I did empty the rifle's magazine several times. So, was not a "big deal" to change to hunt with a single shot Ruger No. 1 - and I do recall a specific mule deer buck that I hit with first shot, and finally killed it with my 9th shot at it - with that single shot. (The previous night's belly full of Jack Daniels, getting older, "fat guy" - likely all came together for that commotion - was over circa several miles (it seemed to me) of rolling shortgrass prairie.)
 
Cases that headspace on the rim like .303BR are invariably made with tapered shoulders - more than specification. The last batch of commercial .303 I fired had a little girl's hair elastic on the rim to push the case back against the bolt face. This was the shoulders and body are fully conformed to the chamber walls. Otherwise the risk is for the case to move or stretch when fired and case a separation.
 
It depends on what your needs are. I've made many very accurate hunting loads with brand new brass. Actually I only really like to hunt with brass that is either new or once twice fired. And my accuracy needs are important but a deer kill zone is about 8" in diameter, a moose is even bigger and I'm probably not going to be shooting past 500 yards at it and more likely less than 200 yards.

For precision shooting it makes sense to use fire formed brass. You are going to be using this brass several times so it makes sense to work up loads with the brass formed to it's "final" form.
 
prairie lover said:
One would think that before the bullet is half way down the barrel the brass would be fireformed.
Click to expand...

One would think. However I've found many times that is not the case. Some cases require multiple firings to fully fire form. Mid range loads with .30-30 were not even growing in the chamber for me. I was neck sizing and loading with a Lee dipper at the range with the same 2 pieces of brass. 5 firings later they were no longer than when I started. I also have some PRVI 7.62X54R that requires quite a few firings to fire form in my 91/30. They just keep going. High pressure cartridges and full power 50k+ loads fire form much quicker.
 
Myself, I only neck size brass after the initial firing for multiple loadings for practice, as I still load hunting ammo in new cases that have been full length sized, as is often recommended in literature (and by my handloading mentors).

I can also see the merits of the information provided above.

But as I am a hunter, and not a competitive shooter, this has worked for me over the past 35 years of handloading for my rifles. Many of my rifles will shoot better than MOA with the handloads I have developed, so I am happy with the results to date.

But I will freely admit that I may be leaving some accuracy on the table by not going to all the lengths that one can to produce the absolute best accuracy in any given rifle/cartridge combination. I do not always play with seating depth, nor neck turn all of my cases, weight sort my brass or my bullets, etc. This is something that I do want to play with more in a couple of my rifles.

And then again, as I am not the best shooter out there, so will I be able to realize that utmost accuracy? Probably not. So I recognize my limitations, and am completely happy with every load that will produce MOA or better accuracy for me, in my rifles.

At the end of the day, these loads and rifles continue to put meat in the freezer when I do my part of accurately placing that bullet in the vitals. And for me, this is the best end result.
 
Joel said:
Never really took note of this except for one rifle (a Remington 700 308 Heavy barrel) that pretty much always shot the same load well regardles....but how much does it make a difference for you using once fired brass instead of a new case?

More capacity, if minimally resized? Hitting pressure signs faster if not? Pretty much the same, and loading it the same all the time?

What about if you just neck size?

Interested to hear the results!
Click to expand...

I've come to the opinion that it makes zero difference. I think the brass expands early in the pressure build after ignition, and doesn't use up any significant amount of energy or change the pressure build up. The results downrange are the same, new brass compared to once fired.
 
Gatehouse said:
It depends on what your needs are. I've made many very accurate hunting loads with brand new brass. .
Click to expand...


Just to add to that...I'm heading out hunting for a week pretty soon and noticed I was low on 6.5 PRC ammo so put together a few rounds before I went to the range, using brand new Lapua brass, 127 gr LRX bullet and RL26. I was checking my trajectory from a 200 yard zero and shot a 1/2MOA 3 shot group at 400 and whacked the 6" gong at 475 so I think the new brass is accurate enough for my hunting needs :)
 
Thanks for all the answers and the info. Really interesting to hear from all different pespectives/uses
 
Mystic Precision said:
For any of my accuracy or competition needs, I will not bother with serious load development until the cases are fireformed.

If there is a significant difference in shape between new and formed, there is a loss of energy going to changing that case. And likely, there is variation from case to case, that adds another variable that can affect your tune. some cases may not settle down until they have been fired a time or two (depends alot about pressure).

that is not to say that you can't make an accurate load to fireform your brass, you can.... but the final load for the barrel is going to happen after the cases have stretched and settled down.

The more accurate your gear, set up and shooter, the more you will be able to see this downrange.

Now, if you are also dealing with a new barrel, then there will be a 2nd change to tune for.... when the barrel breaks in.

If you have a tighter chamber vs the brass, I would go through the entire neck processing steps to make sure I don't cause any pressure spikes when forming. I do not want to overpressure cases, stretch the web in any way or brass life will be brief.

It's a process and really depends on the platform and how serious you are about creating the best functioning brass.

Jerry
Click to expand...

This. - dan
 
For me, virgin brass requires 0.3gr more powder than fired neck sized brass in my 308. To achieve the same poi and velocity
 
As others have already said, it'll generally be better after the first firing, but eventually it'll get brittle and won't size as well without annealing, or it'll separate/crack when it gets really overworked.

As for neck sizing, some do this with great success, but what I've found is that after a few firings it can get harder and harder to close the bolt. Your headspace changes with every firing when you neck size only. You can also get donuts at the shoulder/neck transition. All of this is easy to deal with if you have the right gear, but you can avoid the whole business by just maintaining consistent neck tension and using your FL dies properly - 2thou shoulder bump ONLY, and your headspace will never drift on you, and your brass will last and stay accurate for a really really long time because you're not overworking it.

That's been my experience anyway, and what I've learned from folks in my benchrest club that are way better shooters than I am.
 
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Mystic Precision said:
For any of my accuracy or competition needs, I will not bother with serious load development until the cases are fireformed.

If there is a significant difference in shape between new and formed, there is a loss of energy going to changing that case. And likely, there is variation from case to case, that adds another variable that can affect your tune. some cases may not settle down until they have been fired a time or two (depends alot about pressure).

that is not to say that you can't make an accurate load to fireform your brass, you can.... but the final load for the barrel is going to happen after the cases have stretched and settled down.

The more accurate your gear, set up and shooter, the more you will be able to see this downrange.

Now, if you are also dealing with a new barrel, then there will be a 2nd change to tune for.... when the barrel breaks in.

If you have a tighter chamber vs the brass, I would go through the entire neck processing steps to make sure I don't cause any pressure spikes when forming. I do not want to overpressure cases, stretch the web in any way or brass life will be brief.

It's a process and really depends on the platform and how serious you are about creating the best functioning brass.

Jerry
Click to expand...

This was how I was taught to load by the infamouS montdoug, and BENTBARREL, BOTH LOVERS OF THE CRUSH FITOF THE BRASS
 
Setting off the primer, till bullet exiting the barrel is approximately 1.4 milliseconds. So needless to say fireforming is quick.

Two biggest variables in brass prep are #fired, and brand of brass. If 1moa or worse is okay for a hunting rifle, use range pickup or bought from random person on cgn. For lots of people, plinking, that's enough and okay. Just realize, in actual practical use, be that hunting or competition, your group size at least doubles. Just hard to pack a 600lb concrete range bench to a moose swamp.

All brass will be the same external Saami spec, the differences are internal volume. Thicker/thinner flashhole, web, neck. Internal volume changes pressure flow and geometry. Different company brass is a sl8ghtly different metallurgy, affects work hardening, rebound, sizing, # of times a brass is used before being culled.

Brass prep is such a deep rabbit hole, most of those steps give little or no improvement. Pick which you think your rifle prefers.
 
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