how much is enuf?
- Thread starter blranch
- Start date
The max charge in the powder manufacturers manual is as far as you should go...
if you're reloading for velocity and don't achieve it with the max load listed, switch to a different cartridge/rifle..
if you're reloading for accuracy, the max load is not necessarily the most accurate.
If you dont want your firearm to turn into a grenade.. dont mess with the max loads.
if you're reloading for velocity and don't achieve it with the max load listed, switch to a different cartridge/rifle..
if you're reloading for accuracy, the max load is not necessarily the most accurate.
If you dont want your firearm to turn into a grenade.. dont mess with the max loads.
there's pressure signs or you hit the top load in the book- whichever comes first- the way i do it is to start off with the lowest load, then work my way up until i see either a oressure sign or the group begins to open up again- there's no point in going to maximum loads if it's shooting minute of barn
- Location
- Winnipeg, now
As Valmet762 wrote, Do Not go over the powder manufactures limits. They spend a lot of time and money to find out what is safe. Don't have your estate try to sue the manufacture if you try to get cute with "just a couple more grains" of powder.
that being said, use MORE THAN ONE reloading manual as well- a lot of the loads have been lawyerized and reduced-case in point, yesterday someone was talking about unique in a 9mm, and there were at least 3 different "ranges" for the 124 grain bullet- with the speer no 11 date being the hottest- now the 9mm has been around for a long time, as has unique, and really nothing has changed- but the data between even the 11th and 12 editions was different- of course this point is moot if you encounter pressure signs on your way up or the load opens up
Once I bought my chronograph I use it to determine when to stop.
The first step is to determine, beforehand, what you are trying to achieve - accuracy or a specific velocity. The velocity should be one that is clearly achievable based on modern reloading data.
With the objective in mind, and for me it is usually the velocity, I can start load development with the chronograph. Once the velocity goal is achieved, within the data limit on powder, then I can stop.
If accuracy is out the window (VERY RARELY), then I would try different components, mostly a different bullet.
Without a chronograph I believe you are really shooting in the dark. With a chronograph I can plot the increasing velocity and have a good idea of what the powder is doing.
The first step is to determine, beforehand, what you are trying to achieve - accuracy or a specific velocity. The velocity should be one that is clearly achievable based on modern reloading data.
With the objective in mind, and for me it is usually the velocity, I can start load development with the chronograph. Once the velocity goal is achieved, within the data limit on powder, then I can stop.
If accuracy is out the window (VERY RARELY), then I would try different components, mostly a different bullet.
Without a chronograph I believe you are really shooting in the dark. With a chronograph I can plot the increasing velocity and have a good idea of what the powder is doing.
A chrono is a good idea for getting a picture of what is happening. When velocity gains start decreasing per grain/powder you are getting into your pressure limit zone. Some manuals list max loads that have proven too high a pressure for me in the past. There are many variables that will cause dangerous pressure, one method for checking is seldom enough (like primers). Another valuable tool is a 1" micrometer to take a reading on the "presure ring" of the fired case. These measurements will show extra expansion quickly. Primers, sticky bolts, blow by, shiny headstamps, etc, etc are all signs that show pressure. A seasoned reloader starts to get a "feel" for what is happening after years of watching the signs. Then you need keep brass trimmed short enough and know if your bullet is stuffed into the lands or off the lands...........the list goes on. Get good manuals, read the section on reloading in each of them and develop a system.
Watch your primers, the rounded edges of the primer will start to get square. If you increase your load from here the primer will completely flatten out filling the chamfered edge of the primer pocket. After that you will see cratering around the firing pin. Unless it's a remington for example you will get this from the start. As for more obvious signs of over pressure, the bolt handle will be sticky to lift. This is as far as iv'e gone. Work up slowly .3 grains for 223 size cartridges, .5 for larger. Don't forget potent loads worked up in the winter may be over pressure come summer time depending on the powder. It may be a good idea to back off a grain or two and work back up. I examine my primers every time I eject the cartridge at the range and pay attention to bolt lift.
Hope this helps,good luck.
Hope this helps,good luck.
You mean their lawyers spend a lot of time and get paid a lot of money to make sure they never get sued?
This is misleading at best. I would've never been able to unleash the full potential of the 10mm Auto cartridge, the way it was meant to be loaded, if I'd followed reloading manuals to the letter. You only need to compare modern reloading manuals to those published only twenty or thirty years ago to realize they've watered down a lot of loads, not necessarily because they were unsafe but to avoid getting sued in case of unsafe reloading practices. You most certainly can go over max when following proper load development procedures.
Telling people that going a half-grain over the published maximums (which vary greatly from one manual to the next) is a great way to take all the fun out of reloading.
This is what I do, I was shooting a few years ago a load in my 300 win mag with the 168 gr TSX using H1000 that I assumed was about 3200 fps which is right around max and when I ran it through my Chronograph it was 3400, needless to say that load page was tossed away and I went back to re22.
Originally Posted by valmet762
The max charge in the powder manufacturers manual is as far as you should go...
...If you dont want your firearm to turn into a grenade.. dont mess with the max loads.
Everbody and his yellow dog talk about turning their rifle into a grenade, if they should load an extra grain of powder in it.
Years ago the famous barrel maker and gun smith, Parker Ackley, purposely blew up military bolt action rifles. He could never blow up an action by just increasing the amount of powder the cartridge was designed to use. He always had to keep using a faster powder and even sometimes, having to rebarrel the action to a larger, magnum size case, in order to get enough powder to wreck it.
He eventually wrecked all the actions he tried, except one. A Japanese action kept blowing off the barrels he installed, but the action remained in serviceable condition!
Of the actions he ruined, there wasn't a single one of them that "blew up," to the extent that pieces were flying.
He says in his books on it, that of all the actions ruined, there was only two where he felt a shooter would have been seriously injured, had the rifles been fired from the shoulder. These two were the Krag and the Springfield, which each had an oversized hole through the bolt for the firing pin, and the gas escaping back through this hole would have injured a shooter.
Cerdan, I wish you were closer, so I could shake your hand.
The max charge in the powder manufacturers manual is as far as you should go...
...If you dont want your firearm to turn into a grenade.. dont mess with the max loads.
Everbody and his yellow dog talk about turning their rifle into a grenade, if they should load an extra grain of powder in it.
Years ago the famous barrel maker and gun smith, Parker Ackley, purposely blew up military bolt action rifles. He could never blow up an action by just increasing the amount of powder the cartridge was designed to use. He always had to keep using a faster powder and even sometimes, having to rebarrel the action to a larger, magnum size case, in order to get enough powder to wreck it.
He eventually wrecked all the actions he tried, except one. A Japanese action kept blowing off the barrels he installed, but the action remained in serviceable condition!
Of the actions he ruined, there wasn't a single one of them that "blew up," to the extent that pieces were flying.
He says in his books on it, that of all the actions ruined, there was only two where he felt a shooter would have been seriously injured, had the rifles been fired from the shoulder. These two were the Krag and the Springfield, which each had an oversized hole through the bolt for the firing pin, and the gas escaping back through this hole would have injured a shooter.
Cerdan, I wish you were closer, so I could shake your hand.
There are a number of cartridges like this. The 6.5x55 is another one. Load data is limited to levels that are safe in very old Krag Jorgenson rifles and the M96 Swede Mausers. Using a modern action with the 6.5x55 allows one to go well over book maximums and achieve some truly excellent performance.
As for accuracy and establishing maximum loads, read this article from Mysticplayer and think about his methods:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/reloading-load-tuning-1.php
Mark
- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
If you intend to go beyond the manuals, you are on your own.
Do your research, not just into the powder you intend using, but the firearm you are shooting. All guns are not the same, the strength of even identical firearms will be different.
For most modern cartridges going over max is a fools errand IMO. The loads in the manuals are quite sufficient. The performance gains minimal, the improved accuracy potential near zero.
For some older cartridges, unfortunately, the data presented is designed to work in older or weaker actions/barrels. For these, unless you can find data for modern arms, or a mentor, you are really on your own.
It's not an area where a new reloader should wander, until he's been reloading long enough to stabilize his practices, and gain experience with pressure, and equipment.
Do your research, not just into the powder you intend using, but the firearm you are shooting. All guns are not the same, the strength of even identical firearms will be different.
For most modern cartridges going over max is a fools errand IMO. The loads in the manuals are quite sufficient. The performance gains minimal, the improved accuracy potential near zero.
For some older cartridges, unfortunately, the data presented is designed to work in older or weaker actions/barrels. For these, unless you can find data for modern arms, or a mentor, you are really on your own.
It's not an area where a new reloader should wander, until he's been reloading long enough to stabilize his practices, and gain experience with pressure, and equipment.
I don't put blind trust in either a chronograph or in any manual.Your gun may not produce the velocity listed in the manual at safe chamber pressures,or it may produce slightly more velocity while still developing safe chamber pressures.Comparing manuals shows up to 3 or 4 grain variations in maximum loads for a given set of components due to the variations in chamber and barrel dimensions,and due to variations in components.Simply changing the lot# of powder can result in an increase or decrease of 100fps or more,so obviously,the chamber pressure is varying as well.
I start with a reduced load and work up while watching for pressure signs,and when I am approaching the average of the max loads in the manuals,I check the velocity over a chronograph.If the velocity seems reasonable,and there are no pressure signs,I load three new cases with the load and fire and reload each case five times.If the primer pockets are still tight after five firings,I consider the load safe in my rifle,with that lot# of components.If at any time I encounter pressure signs such as increased resistance on bolt lift,or case extrusion,I reduce the load regardless of what the manuals or chronograph tell me.
I start with a reduced load and work up while watching for pressure signs,and when I am approaching the average of the max loads in the manuals,I check the velocity over a chronograph.If the velocity seems reasonable,and there are no pressure signs,I load three new cases with the load and fire and reload each case five times.If the primer pockets are still tight after five firings,I consider the load safe in my rifle,with that lot# of components.If at any time I encounter pressure signs such as increased resistance on bolt lift,or case extrusion,I reduce the load regardless of what the manuals or chronograph tell me.
