How much is SKS from Ukraine REALLY worth

Horilka

Horilka

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In reply to yesterday's topic... I'm not going to go through all the crap in the video, instead I will try to explain how we ended up with great selection of mil-surplus from Ukraine and comment on pricing.
Why Ukraine? Ukraine ended up with huge stash of USSR firearm for a several reasons - it was on the West side of USSR, second line on defense against evil Capitalists (first line was Warsaw pact countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia etc), so it had to have a lot. When ex-Warsaw countries said USSR to get out, many of the firearm settled in Ukraine for service and storage. Also several repair facilities were servicing WW2 firearms in 1960-1970s. So all that stuff was left to Ukraine when country resumed it's independence in 1991. We are mostly interested in surplus, not the modern stuff. Surplus is stored in Soledar salt mines. Only salt mines are good for that because the way the salt was mined created huge halls underground with low humidity and constant low temperature. All other types of mines have no use for this purpose.

symphony.jpg


Ukraine has cashes of firearms controlled by Ministry of Defense and State Reserve storage. What we were getting here was coming from Army (Ministry of Defense) surplus. Following firearm was available as surplus: MN 91/30, PPSH-41, PPS-43, Thompson SMGs, SVTs, SKSs, Nagant M1895, TT-33s, Makarovs, Stechkins, Luger P-08, Walther P-38, Star B (captured and removed from Bulgaria), MG34, MG43, ZB-30s, Mauser K98k. There were some other items, I don't recall of them, but I think I mentioned most common ones. What is the cost of this firearm to Ukraine. Zero, nicht, nein, nothing. Ukraine did not produced it. That was Soviet Union legacy. However for the accounting purposes it was recorded with it's depreciated value that they took from USSR records. As you can imagine depreciated value of SKS made in 1950x is truly couple of dollars on the paper.

Now what happens if there's a need to sell the firearm. This is kind of simplification of what happens, but state state owned company that deals with all commercial imports, exports, sales and developments (UkrOboronExport - UOE or one of several its sister-companies) prepares numbers and nomenclature of required firearms. Government which is called "Cabinet of Ministers" in Ukraine orders to Ministry of Defense to sell this firearm to UOE. And of course sales happen for the depreciated balance value. Basically state transfer firearm between states entities. Itemized lists with prices are open information, available on official site of Government (Cabinet of Ministers). So if this russian Borat blogger tries to present it as sale price, he probably addresses only other heavy drug users. I hope there are none among us.

Now, when firearm is in possession of UOE (or one of its sister companies) it's being taken care of - smallest part will be sold as live firearm to gun owners in Ukraine (use to be tiny market, dominated by hunters) with SKS price IIRC was approximately USD$500-600 before war and converted auto AK-47 USD$800-900, some will be deactivated and sold as souvenirs - appr USD$190 [price edited, my memory is playing tricks with me] for Tommy gun, more for other guns, some will be exported. To facilitate all of this firearm is transferred to one of the service and repair facilities, two biggest ones are Balakleya and Shepetovka. I've been to Balakleya storage, imagine storage 10 times higher than Costco warehouse, shelves full of crates with milsurplus in work. This is something I will remember forever. This is where pre-sale preparation happens (be it pinning, de-activating) or simply servicing. All firearm stored needs to be serviced from time to time. If you ever opened the crate with SVT-40 or SKS you probably saw a list of rifles with service dates, some from USSR time, some from Ukraine time.

What UOE or any of its sister company negotiates with buyer in terms of price - that is a different story. Ukraine as a member of UN submits this information to UN. It's not a public information (prices) but there are some leaked data that include Canadian importers too. According to my information these sales figures are more or less correct. Numbers on opposite are public information and there's State Export control body that oversees all kind of exports.

First numbers for export:
2011. Total - 263,170 pcs.
-Revolvers and pistols: Germany – 12979, USA – 15500, UK – 500, Canada – 400, Thailand – 4, Pakistan – 5000, Peru - 84;
-Rifles and carbines: Austria -2000, Germany -53845, USA -143600, UK -6000, Canada -7300, Tadzhikistan – 300, Turkmenistan – 1;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: UK – 217, UAE –1000, Yemen – 10000, Syria – 4000, South Korea - 40;
-LMGs: Yemen – 400.

2012. Total – 188,998 pcs.
-Revolvers and pistols: Germany – 14426, Sri Lanka - 11, Pakistan – 7000, Czech Republic – 538, Turkmenistan – 1;
-Rifles and carbines: Kazakhstan -260, Germany -14395, USA -90000, Canada -11000, Czech Republic – 1502, China – 1;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: Israel – 2000, Czech Republic – 7280, Chad – 15000, Sudan – 22000, Kenya - 3000;
-LMGs: Turkey – 250, Austria -215, Czech Republic –75, Thailand -1;
-Heavy MGs (DShK): Kenya– 43.

2013. Total – 112,413 pcs
-Revolvers and pistols: Germany – 1412, USA – 4000, UK – 1378, Canada – 600, Czech Republic – 500, Azerbajdzhan – 3, Peru -410;
-Rifles and carbines: Austria -2000, Germany -9500, USA -30000, UK -7668, Canada -19100, Czech Republic – 510, Italy – 500, Moldova -15;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: Austria – 4500, Czech Republic – 16100, Ethiopia – 10000, Tadzhikistan – 2000;
-LMGs: Turkey – 5, Tadzhikistan – 500, Chad – 500.

2014. Total – 36,939 pcs.
-Revolvers and pistols: Democratic Republic Congo – 2, Moldova – 2, Peru -580;
-Rifles and carbines: Canada - 10400, USA -10166, Georgia -100, UK -7668, Czech Republic – 5000, Democratic Republic Congo –1, Uganda -3000;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: Democratic Republic Congo – 2;
-LMGs: Democratic Republic Congo –1, S. Sudan – 830;
-Heavy MGs (DShK): S. Sudan – 62.

2015. Total – 12,671 pcs.
-Revolvers and pistols: Unided Arab Emirates – 2, Peru - 4;
-Rifles and carbines: Zambia -2544, USA -10000;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: Zambia - 104;
-LMGs: Zambia – 17.

As you can see export almost stopped since the war started, only old contracts were fulfilled.

Now to the interesting part, prices in 2013. I masked names of Canadian businesses out of courtesy to them.
(8 UAH = 1 USD in 2013)

Buyer Item Qty Price, UAH .
«I****c.» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2850 774521
«B***Inc» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 1995 542165
«Waffen Schumacher GmbH» 7.62 SVT-40 2500 1338827
«Hire & Fire» USA Mauser K98, 7.92x57 379 251435
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.62 SVT-40 2000 1071062
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.62 TT-33 1000 239790
«I***c.» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2150 852053
«I***c.» Canada 7.62 SVT-40 500
«I***c.» Canada 7.62 TT-33 600 143874
«Hire & Fire» USA 9mm Star B 378 211494
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.92 VZ-24 289 138598
«Limex GmbH» Austria 7.62 SKS-45 2000 367678
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.62 SKS-45 2810 763651
«B***c» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2005 544882,81
«Limex GmbH» Austria 11.43mm Thompson SMG. 1928 г. 1400 1342824
«Limex GmbH» Austria 11.43mm Thompson SMG 1100 1055076
«S***d» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2100 702632
«Sabine Schneider» Germany 7.62 TT-33 1412 338583
«B.V.S., spol. s.r.o.» Czech Republic 7.62 SVT-40 500 267765
«B.V.S., spol. s.r.o.» Czech Republic 5,.45 AKS-74U 1000 959160
«B.V.S., spol. s.r.o.» Czech Republic 7.62 TT-33 500 119895
«S***d» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2500 836467
«Sportswereus Inc.» USA 7.62 Nagant revolver 4000 863244
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.62 SKS-45 2190 595158
«S***d» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2500 836467
«Waffen Schumacher GmbH» Germany 7.62 SKS-45 2500 679405
«Waffen Schumacher GmbH» Germany 7.62 SKS-45 2500 679405
«S***d» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2500 836467
«Sabine Schneider» Germany 7.62 SKS-45 1000 183839
«Palmetto S.N.C.» Italy 7.62 SKS-45 500 91919
«I***c.» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2850 774521
«B***c» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 1995 542165

As you can see from first line SKS price is UAH 271 per item, equals to USD$34,
SVTs to Germany for USD$67
TT33 for USD$30

Now, take this price and run a business that involves warehouses, stuff payroll, transportation, pre-payments, licenses, distributors and retailers. Also business has to be profitable, right? It's not a rocket science - go and import it by yourself. Don't afraid corruption in Ukraine - it's significantly less then in Canada (well it's just on different levels), you know what I'm talking about especially if you're in Ontario and pay hydro bills and you know that no member of government of Ontario will ever go to jail for this.

Also I would recommend to read this Canadian importer interview - http://calibremag.ca/surplus-ammunition-how-it-gets-from-there-to-here/ to see this process from Canadian side. Very good interview.

Bottom line - Don't Count Other People's Money - spend your efforts on earning yours.

P.S. Sorry for not proofreading the text.
 
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Prices they're asking have gone up significantly since 2013. When you add pinning and shipping alone, some of the firearms won't even be worth importing at all. The last few waves of imports were from Molot for this reason.

The major problem is that Canadian firearms owners are generally the cheapest people in the entire world and demand rock bottom pricing. They think every retailer is gouging them when in fact Canadian firearm vendors make some of the lowest margins in retail.
 
Last edited:
bp2626 said:
Prices they're asking have gone up significantly since 2013. When you add pinning and shipping alone, some of the firearms won't even be worth importing at all. The last few waves of imports were from Molot for this reason.

The major problem is that Canadian firearms owners are generally the cheapest people in the entire world and demand rock bottom pricing. They think every retailer is gouging them when in fact Canadian firearm vendors make some of the lowest margins in retail.
Click to expand...

in the firearms retail industry you re making money by selling volume .... like most of the retail industry ...
 
"Bottom line - Don't Count Other People's Money - spend your efforts on earning yours"

This is one of the truest things ever said on this site. Too many people bypass the Canadian system because they think they are being "had". Canadians have such a high level of cynicism, they always think they are being screwed by the "man". Maybe this is from years of liberal socialist propaganda spouted off in Canada that the bourgeoisie was stealing for Comrade Canadian, I dunno. What I DO know is that bp2626 is correct. Canadian firearm owners are cheap. So cheap that they complain that Canadian prices are too high so they do things like smuggle scopes, gun parts, ammo etc across the border trying to save a few bucks, risking their own freedom of movement/wallet if caught. It also screws Canadian businesses out of money that they put up so that Canadians can have options where to shop. It's asinine. Companies like PR (I abbreviate out of risk of CGN jail :rolleyes: ) hurt Canadian retailers by pushing Grey market products and act like they are the good guys while shops like Grouse River which had employees relying on them just had to close their doors. It sickening.

Buy Canadian. Support Canadian Business. Stop electing Politicians who raise taxes and spend like lunatics. If Canadians did that, our economy would grow, our household incomes would grow and we would have more money to spend on gun stuff at the current price.
 
Grouse river earned their lack of business by always being higher priced than other local sources. That sort of business model drives people to those other local businesses or online.

I feel like Canadians always have this being ripped off chip on our shoulders because we are convinced we are as important as the Americans and deserve to pay their lower prices. We are ranked 38th in the world for population size, the Americans are third. They are a heck of a distant third behind India and China. Basically take the American population and add a one in front of it. Imagine how left out we will be when those two countries gain more freedoms.

The price of an SKS is mainly in the importing, licensing, sorting, and pinning as I see it. Imagine how expensive they would be if we also had to pay for them to be manufactured. My grandfather was very well paid and had a modest collection of firearms. He had a modest home and didn't waste money. In comparison my generation is living so fat we don't know what to do with ourselves.
 
Horilka said:
In reply to yesterday's topic... I'm not going to go through all the crap in the video, instead I will try to explain how we ended up with great selection of mil-surplus from Ukraine and comment on pricing.
Why Ukraine? Ukraine ended up with huge stash of USSR firearm for a several reasons - it was on the West side of USSR, second line on defense against evil Capitalists (first line was Warsaw pact countries like Poland, Czechoslovakia etc), so it had to have a lot. When ex-Warsaw countries said USSR to get out, many of the firearm settled in Ukraine for service and storage. Also several repair facilities were servicing WW2 firearms in 1960-1970s. So all that stuff was left to Ukraine when country resumed it's independence in 1991. We are mostly interested in surplus, not the modern stuff. Surplus is stored in Soledar salt mines. Only salt mines are good for that because the way the salt was mined created huge halls underground with low humidity and constant low temperature. All other types of mines have no use for this purpose.

symphony.jpg


Ukraine has cashes of firearms controlled by Ministry of Defense and State Reserve storage. What we were getting here was coming from Army (Ministry of Defense) surplus. Following firearm was available as surplus: MN 91/30, PPSH-41, PPS-43, Thompson SMGs, SVTs, SKSs, Nagant M1895, TT-33s, Makarovs, Stechkins, Luger P-08, Walther P-38, Star B (captured and removed from Bulgaria), MG34, MG43, ZB-30s, Mauser K98k. There were some other items, I don't recall of them, but I think I mentioned most common ones. What is the cost of this firearm to Ukraine. Zero, nicht, nein, nothing. Ukraine did not produced it. That was Soviet Union legacy. However for the accounting purposes it was recorded with it's depreciated value that they took from USSR records. As you can imagine depreciated value of SKS made in 1950x is truly couple of dollars on the paper.

Now what happens if there's a need to sell the firearm. This is kind of simplification of what happens, but state state owned company that deals with all commercial imports, exports, sales and developments (UkrOboronExport - UOE or one of several its sister-companies) prepares numbers and nomenclature of required firearms. Government which is called "Cabinet of Ministers" in Ukraine orders to Ministry of Defense to sell this firearm to UOE. And of course sales happen for the depreciated balance value. Basically state transfer firearm between states entities. Itemized lists with prices are open information, available on official site of Government (Cabinet of Ministers). So if this russian Borat blogger tries to present it as sale price, he probably addresses only other heavy drug users. I hope there are none among us.

Now, when firearm is in possession of UOE (or one of its sister companies) it's being taken care of - smallest part will be sold as live firearm to gun owners in Ukraine (use to be tiny market, dominated by hunters) with SKS price IIRC was approximately USD$500-600 before war and converted auto AK-47 USD$800-900, some will be deactivated and sold as souvenirs - USD$25 (yes, 25 US Dollars in 2008-2010) for Tommy gun, more for other guns, some will be exported. To facilitate all of this firearm is transferred to one of the service and repair facilities, two biggest ones are Balakleya and Shepetovka. I've been to Balakleya storage, imagine storage 10 times higher than Costco warehouse, shelves full of crates with milsurplus in work. This is something I will remember forever. This is where pre-sale preparation happens (be it pinning, de-activating) or simply servicing. All firearm stored needs to be serviced from time to time. If you ever opened the crate with SVT-40 or SKS you probably saw a list of rifles with service dates, some from USSR time, some from Ukraine time.

What UOE or any of its sister company negotiates with buyer in terms of price - that is a different story. Ukraine as a member of UN submits this information to UN. It's not a public information (prices) but there are some leaked data that include Canadian importers too. According to my information these sales figures are more or less correct. Numbers on opposite are public information and there's State Export control body that oversees all kind of exports.

First numbers for export:
2011. Total - 263,170 pcs.
-Revolvers and pistols: Germany – 12979, USA – 15500, UK – 500, Canada – 400, Thailand – 4, Pakistan – 5000, Peru - 84;
-Rifles and carbines: Austria -2000, Germany -53845, USA -143600, UK -6000, Canada -7300, Tadzhikistan – 300, Turkmenistan – 1;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: UK – 217, UAE –1000, Yemen – 10000, Syria – 4000, South Korea - 40;
-LMGs: Yemen – 400.

2012. Total – 188,998 pcs.
-Revolvers and pistols: Germany – 14426, Sri Lanka - 11, Pakistan – 7000, Czech Republic – 538, Turkmenistan – 1;
-Rifles and carbines: Kazakhstan -260, Germany -14395, USA -90000, Canada -11000, Czech Republic – 1502, China – 1;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: Israel – 2000, Czech Republic – 7280, Chad – 15000, Sudan – 22000, Kenya - 3000;
-LMGs: Turkey – 250, Austria -215, Czech Republic –75, Thailand -1;
-Heavy MGs (DShK): Kenya– 43.

2013. Total – 112,413 pcs
-Revolvers and pistols: Germany – 1412, USA – 4000, UK – 1378, Canada – 600, Czech Republic – 500, Azerbajdzhan – 3, Peru -410;
-Rifles and carbines: Austria -2000, Germany -9500, USA -30000, UK -7668, Canada -19100, Czech Republic – 510, Italy – 500, Moldova -15;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: Austria – 4500, Czech Republic – 16100, Ethiopia – 10000, Tadzhikistan – 2000;
-LMGs: Turkey – 5, Tadzhikistan – 500, Chad – 500.

2014. Total – 36,939 pcs.
-Revolvers and pistols: Democratic Republic Congo – 2, Moldova – 2, Peru -580;
-Rifles and carbines: Canada - 10400, USA -10166, Georgia -100, UK -7668, Czech Republic – 5000, Democratic Republic Congo –1, Uganda -3000;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: Democratic Republic Congo – 2;
-LMGs: Democratic Republic Congo –1, S. Sudan – 830;
-Heavy MGs (DShK): S. Sudan – 62.

2015. Total – 12,671 pcs.
-Revolvers and pistols: Unided Arab Emirates – 2, Peru - 4;
-Rifles and carbines: Zambia -2544, USA -10000;
-Assault rifles and SMGs: Zambia - 104;
-LMGs: Zambia – 17.

As you can see export almost stopped since the war started, only old contracts were fulfilled.

Now to the interesting part, prices in 2013. I masked names of Canadian businesses out of courtesy to them.
(8 UAH = 1 USD in 2013)

Buyer Item Qty Price, UAH .
«I****c.» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2850 774521
«B***Inc» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 1995 542165
«Waffen Schumacher GmbH» 7.62 SVT-40 2500 1338827
«Hire & Fire» USA Mauser K98, 7.92x57 379 251435
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.62 SVT-40 2000 1071062
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.62 TT-33 1000 239790
«I***c.» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2150 852053
«I***c.» Canada 7.62 SVT-40 500
«I***c.» Canada 7.62 TT-33 600 143874
«Hire & Fire» USA 9mm Star B 378 211494
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.92 VZ-24 289 138598
«Limex GmbH» Austria 7.62 SKS-45 2000 367678
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.62 SKS-45 2810 763651
«B***c» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2005 544882,81
«Limex GmbH» Austria 11.43mm Thompson SMG. 1928 г. 1400 1342824
«Limex GmbH» Austria 11.43mm Thompson SMG 1100 1055076
«S***d» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2100 702632
«Sabine Schneider» Germany 7.62 TT-33 1412 338583
«B.V.S., spol. s.r.o.» Czech Republic 7.62 SVT-40 500 267765
«B.V.S., spol. s.r.o.» Czech Republic 5,.45 AKS-74U 1000 959160
«B.V.S., spol. s.r.o.» Czech Republic 7.62 TT-33 500 119895
«S***d» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2500 836467
«Sportswereus Inc.» USA 7.62 Nagant revolver 4000 863244
«Hire & Fire» USA 7.62 SKS-45 2190 595158
«S***d» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2500 836467
«Waffen Schumacher GmbH» Germany 7.62 SKS-45 2500 679405
«Waffen Schumacher GmbH» Germany 7.62 SKS-45 2500 679405
«S***d» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2500 836467
«Sabine Schneider» Germany 7.62 SKS-45 1000 183839
«Palmetto S.N.C.» Italy 7.62 SKS-45 500 91919
«I***c.» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 2850 774521
«B***c» Canada 7.62 SKS-45 1995 542165

As you can see from first line SKS price is UAH 271 per item, equals to USD$34,
SVTs to Germany for USD$67
TT33 for USD$30

Now, take this price and run a business that involves warehouses, stuff payroll, transportation, pre-payments, licenses, distributors and retailers. Also business has to be profitable, right? It's not a rocket science - go and import it by yourself. Don't afraid corruption in Ukraine - it's significantly less then in Canada (well it's just on different levels), you know what I'm talking about especially if you're in Ontario and pay hydro bills and you know that no member of government of Ontario will ever go to jail for this.

Also I would recommend to read this Canadian importer interview - http://calibremag.ca/surplus-ammunition-how-it-gets-from-there-to-here/ to see this process from Canadian side. Very good interview.

Bottom line - Don't Count Other People's Money - spend your efforts on earning yours.

P.S. Sorry for not proofreading the text.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that info, do you have any pics of the salt mines full of guns/ammo, that would be cool, the salt mines are huge. lots of middle men and levies / taxes drive prices up. with the volume thing, to bad our suppliers didn't give a reasonable discount for crate or multiple crate lots.
What is your guess of when or if Ukraine will start exporting more sks/SVT/ TT33, etc.?
Also do you have a guess or information on the number of different rifles, and handguns still in storage in Ukraine?
 
Sorry guys, there's no much to elaborate. I can't see a future and don't know if any importer will find it profitable and feasible to import anything from Ukraine. I also have only certain numbers on what is left but those things are not of interest for collectors in Canada, nor they are importable. Lugers to my knowledge were never imported to Canada from Ukraine, at least I haven't seen any single RC Luger, but RC P38s probably came from Ukraine.
Apart of asking yourself if we are going to see any imports ask yourself is there's a demand and if market can take anymore. It looks like it's full of MNs and SKSs and TT-33s. But if there's a real demand I suppose importers will find the way to get stuff, that's why latest imports of MN snipers, SKSs and TT-33 with laser etched export markings made its way from Russia.
 
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