How much slop is normal in m14's?

D

Dweano

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Hey guys...I am going to start off by saying I am new to guns. I grew up shooting a 22 but I have only seriously gotten into centerfires and semi's reccently so bear with me. I bought a shorty M14 through CanAm and I took it apart today. The only thing I did was take out the trigger group and then take the action out of the stock, that was the only disassembly I did, and I check it over a couple times and honestly it just seems....sloppy. I don't know if that is the way these guns are supposed to be or maybe I just got a dud. Here is the thing I noticed:

1. My bolt release hardly grips. If I pull the bolt back without a mag (is that my problem?) and try and put the bolt release on it doesn't grip. It won't hold the oprod/bolt back

2. My Oprod seems sloppy. If I pull up on the charging handle I can move it a fair bit up and down. If I pull it back it obviously goes back :D Is this normal for them to seem like I can pull them up and out?

3. The bolt seems like its slopping around between the reciever and oprod. When the chamber is closed I can put my finger on the bolt and if i push forward and back there is play, same with side to side. I can tilt it almost 1mm with just my finger.

4.The oprod is easy to pull back til about half way then it gets hard...this is just because it is cocking the firing mechanism right?

Are these things normal? To me it all seems very sloppy, the operating rod and bolt seem like crucial things

Upon further review it seems like after I dry fire it the bolt is more tight, but when the firing pin is cocked the bolt is sloppy. The oprod is sloppy all the time.

I appreciate any advice that is given because like I said I am new to guns and have no mentors haha
 
All of that seems to be the norm as far as I can tell. Mine is like that. There are a few things you can do at home in ur basement to tighten a few things up. There are lots of stickies to rad and some time spent using the search function will have you reading for wayyy longer than you want to. Look for threads on shimming the gas system and tightening up the op rod guide, for starters.
When you attempt to lock the bolt back, are you actually using your thumb or finger to engage the bolt catch? I have read that some of them are kind of sticky. Does it work with an empty mag in the gun?
The oprod and bolt both have play in them normally.
Yes when you #### it back and it gets hard, it is just re setting the hammer.
Hope that helps a bit
 
Yes that does help. Thank you. I try to read around but there is so many things I don't know and to me I just assumed slop in things was bad. The more I read the better I feel :) I need an M14 101 course haha. Bolt catch works with an empty mag. But when I take it out it doesn't work at all basically. I pull back the bolt and with my other hand push the bolt release up and slowly let back the bolt, even slowly when I let the bolt back, the bolt release just slips and the whole thing slides forward. So...hmm...
 
Well with schooling and stuff I am kinda all over, next year I will be at Palliser in Moose Jaw, this summer I will be at my parents farm near Lanigan. Gotta love wide open farm land for popping off a couple rounds!
 
Kevin M. said:
I cringe when the word "slop" is used with reference to firearms.

I like good old precision gunsmithing.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree. Firearms shouldn't be sloppy, thats why I wish this gun had none. Haha. But I guess if it is normal and doesn't affect accuracy then I can't complain too much
 
Dweano said:
Bolt catch works with an empty mag. But when I take it out it doesn't work at all basically. I pull back the bolt and with my other hand push the bolt release up and slowly let back the bolt, even slowly when I let the bolt back, the bolt release just slips and the whole thing slides forward. So...hmm...
Click to expand...

I'm thinking your bolt release is functioning the way it was designed. It was never meant to be manipulated with your fingers....unless you change it out for a larger one. Maybe some one else can chime in and give a more definitive answer....as I'm still pretty new to the m14 world myself.
 
Dweano said:
Bolt catch works with an empty mag. But when I take it out it doesn't work at all basically. I pull back the bolt and with my other hand push the bolt release up and slowly let back the bolt, even slowly when I let the bolt back, the bolt release just slips and the whole thing slides forward. So...hmm...
Click to expand...

Just for for clarification, you are pushing the bolt release lever up? So on the side of you rifle, you are pushing up on the lever? It needs to be pushed in the other direction? Might just be me misunderstanding your post though.
 
All sounds pretty normal for the M14 design, with the possible exception of the bolt hold open, which absolutely was designed to be activated by hand.
Are you sure you're doing it right? Pull back bolt, activate hold open, let bolt move forward, then let go of hold open.

Op rod: "Is this normal for them to seem like I can pull them up and out?" I don't understand what you are asking, but a fair amount of lateral movement in the op rod under the barrel is normal.

With the chamber empty the bolt on a rack-grade rifle can exhibit a surprising amount of lateral and fore-aft movement. And yes, the bolt gets harder to move about half way back, because it is re-engaging the (already cocked) hammer. If you dry fire the gun, it will be tough the whole way back, because it engages the (uncocked) hammer immediately. And the reason the bolt has less movement after dry firing is because the hammer is pressing hard up against it with a strong spring, holding the bolt firmly in the foremost position.

Dweano said:
Hey guys...I am going to start off by saying I am new to guns. I grew up shooting a 22 but I have only seriously gotten into centerfires and semi's reccently so bear with me. I bought a shorty M14 through CanAm and I took it apart today. The only thing I did was take out the trigger group and then take the action out of the stock, that was the only disassembly I did, and I check it over a couple times and honestly it just seems....sloppy. I don't know if that is the way these guns are supposed to be or maybe I just got a dud. Here is the thing I noticed:

1. My bolt release hardly grips. If I pull the bolt back without a mag (is that my problem?) and try and put the bolt release on it doesn't grip. It won't hold the oprod/bolt back

2. My Oprod seems sloppy. If I pull up on the charging handle I can move it a fair bit up and down. If I pull it back it obviously goes back :D Is this normal for them to seem like I can pull them up and out?

3. The bolt seems like its slopping around between the reciever and oprod. When the chamber is closed I can put my finger on the bolt and if i push forward and back there is play, same with side to side. I can tilt it almost 1mm with just my finger.

4.The oprod is easy to pull back til about half way then it gets hard...this is just because it is cocking the firing mechanism right?

Are these things normal? To me it all seems very sloppy, the operating rod and bolt seem like crucial things

Upon further review it seems like after I dry fire it the bolt is more tight, but when the firing pin is cocked the bolt is sloppy. The oprod is sloppy all the time.

I appreciate any advice that is given because like I said I am new to guns and have no mentors haha
Click to expand...
 
The reason you do cannot feel the bolt move after dry firing is due to the fact that the spring loaded hammer is resting on the firing pin/bolt. When you pull back all the way, the hammer is now cocked and the bolt is free to wiggle.

Wiggling back and forth is normal. Some rifles do it more so than others. When I bought mine, I did not know this and bought a "wiggly" one. It was well within NATO spec, but I was noticing that after a couple of reloads, my cases were showing signs of distress. I left a 0.005" gap on the resizer and all was good. Then I bought a USGI bolt and it tightened up to an upper model commercial bolt rifle spec. Nothing to worry about, If you don't handload, feel free to gather up the cases and send to me. :D

As for the op rod, again, when the rifle is cocked, the op-rod can wiggle a little bit. Remember that the rifle operates on a gas blowback principle. Some of the gas from the fired shell forces the piston to push directly on the op-rod. The energy from this action is sufficient to overcome the spring tension of the op-rod spring, the friction of the operating parts, the friction of the bolt sliding over the shells (the magazine exerts an upward pressure on the shells and ultimately the bolt) AND the hammer to push the bolt back to #### the bolt. Now, with no energy left, the op-rod spring does the rest, and bring the bolt back to rest.

If there was no wiggle, there would be too much friction in the system and the rifle would not cycle properly. I found this out when I got a new USGI bolt, op-rod and springs. Rifle would not cycle due to everything being too tight. A little tender loving care, engine overhaul experience and some valve lapping compound carefully placed in strategic locations (and cleaned off thoroughly after) resolved the issue completely.
 
Dweano said:
Hey guys...I am going to start off by saying I am new to guns. I grew up shooting a 22 but I have only seriously gotten into centerfires and semi's reccently so bear with me. I bought a shorty M14 through CanAm and I took it apart today. The only thing I did was take out the trigger group and then take the action out of the stock, that was the only disassembly I did, and I check it over a couple times and honestly it just seems....sloppy. I don't know if that is the way these guns are supposed to be or maybe I just got a dud. Here is the thing I noticed:

1. My bolt release hardly grips. If I pull the bolt back without a mag (is that my problem?) and try and put the bolt release on it doesn't grip. It won't hold the oprod/bolt back

2. My Oprod seems sloppy. If I pull up on the charging handle I can move it a fair bit up and down. If I pull it back it obviously goes back :D Is this normal for them to seem like I can pull them up and out?

3. The bolt seems like its slopping around between the reciever and oprod. When the chamber is closed I can put my finger on the bolt and if i push forward and back there is play, same with side to side. I can tilt it almost 1mm with just my finger.

4.The oprod is easy to pull back til about half way then it gets hard...this is just because it is cocking the firing mechanism right?

Are these things normal? To me it all seems very sloppy, the operating rod and bolt seem like crucial things

Upon further review it seems like after I dry fire it the bolt is more tight, but when the firing pin is cocked the bolt is sloppy. The oprod is sloppy all the time.

I appreciate any advice that is given because like I said I am new to guns and have no mentors haha
Click to expand...

1) Not sure about that. I;m not trying to insult your intelligence but are you sure the bolt is all the way to the rear when try to engage the bolt lock lever?

2)The M14 is a battle rifle. It is not a precision made instrument crafted by Swedish watch makers. It is designed to be loose and reliable to a degree that still allows for very functional accuracy.

3)Same as number two.

4)Does this problem persist if you #### the action for the second time? It sounds like you are saying it goes back smooth until it starts cocking the hammer down. #### the action. Then try it again, if it still sticks try greasing the bolt roller, the channels that the op rod rides in along the side and inside of the receivers etc. Not oil, actual grease. Any will do. If

The bolt is "less sloppy" after you relase the hammer (pull the trigger after cocking) because the pressure of the hammer is forcing it forward and "holding" it a little more firmly in place.
The M14 is a battle rifle. It's not designed to be a tight tolerance tack driver. There are national match versions of the M1A that are manufactured to tighten all of these issues and drive tacks as far as accuracy.
That being said, these are Norinco clones. There are some things you can do to improve the rifle and there are a lot that are pointless and very expensive tail chasing. I recomend looking into the following "do it yourself" improvements: Replace your rear sight assembly with an M1 Garand set or an M1A set, check to see that your barrel is properly indexed, shim your gas system.
If you need any detailed tips or questions Hungry on here is an M14 wizard and will answer any and all questions with a smile.
I will help you or guide you if you have any questions on how to do these modifications and why. Just PM me.
Welcome to the addiction Sir :D
 
BattleRife said:
All sounds pretty normal for the M14 design, with the possible exception of the bolt hold open, which absolutely was designed to be activated by hand.
Are you sure you're doing it right? Pull back bolt, activate hold open, let bolt move forward, then let go of hold open.

Op rod: "Is this normal for them to seem like I can pull them up and out?" I don't understand what you are asking, but a fair amount of lateral movement in the op rod under the barrel is normal.

With the chamber empty the bolt on a rack-grade rifle can exhibit a surprising amount of lateral and fore-aft movement. And yes, the bolt gets harder to move about half way back, because it is re-engaging the (already cocked) hammer. If you dry fire the gun, it will be tough the whole way back, because it engages the (uncocked) hammer immediately. And the reason the bolt has less movement after dry firing is because the hammer is pressing hard up against it with a strong spring, holding the bolt firmly in the foremost position.
Click to expand...

Haha, yes I am doing it right. Next time I am home I will try to take some pictures...maybe I am doing it wrong...but it is a simple level holding something open...so...I dunno. I will see I guess. It works with the mags in I think. But without the mags the bolt will not stay open no matter what I do

I mean when the gun is empty. Nothing cocked (even when it is cocked). If I pull up (not back) on the charging handle I can move it up and down and the whole op rod kind of rotates. Probably normal from what I am hearing but I figured I should make sure

Travis Bickle said:
1) Not sure about that. I;m not trying to insult your intelligence but are you sure the bolt is all the way to the rear when try to engage the bolt lock lever?

2)The M14 is a battle rifle. It is not a precision made instrument crafted by Swedish watch makers. It is designed to be loose and reliable to a degree that still allows for very functional accuracy.

3)Same as number two.

4)Does this problem persist if you #### the action for the second time? It sounds like you are saying it goes back smooth until it starts cocking the hammer down. #### the action. Then try it again, if it still sticks try greasing the bolt roller, the channels that the op rod rides in along the side and inside of the receivers etc. Not oil, actual grease. Any will do. If

The bolt is "less sloppy" after you relase the hammer (pull the trigger after cocking) because the pressure of the hammer is forcing it forward and "holding" it a little more firmly in place.
The M14 is a battle rifle. It's not designed to be a tight tolerance tack driver. There are national match versions of the M1A that are manufactured to tighten all of these issues and drive tacks as far as accuracy.
That being said, these are Norinco clones. There are some things you can do to improve the rifle and there are a lot that are pointless and very expensive tail chasing. I recomend looking into the following "do it yourself" improvements: Replace your rear sight assembly with an M1 Garand set or an M1A set, check to see that your barrel is properly indexed, shim your gas system.
If you need any detailed tips or questions Hungry on here is an M14 wizard and will answer any and all questions with a smile.
I will help you or guide you if you have any questions on how to do these modifications and why. Just PM me.
Welcome to the addiction Sir :D
Click to expand...

Yeah I am not expecting to dump tons of money into it and make it a tack driver, just tighten it is some, and do what I can do to make it more accurate.

That makes sense about the bolt and I know it is not a precision instrument. I was just wondering if I got a dud or these things were normal. I will grease it up next time before I shoot it and see how it goes from there.

One more question that I posted in another thread: for mounting a bipod do I need to got the bipod and an adaptor for a rail? Or can they be mounted other ways? I plan on getting this bipod from CanAm and it comes with three adaptors...so I was hoping thats all I needed. I was under the impression that you drill out the sling mount rivets and then use those holes?

http://canadaammo.com/product.php?productid=408&cat=15&page=1
 
All that slop will cause yer #### to fall off! :eek:

Nah, jes' kidding.... Hey, it's a battle rifle! It's built fer the zombie invasion, yo! Dis' be the heater o' the hood, yo! :D

Cheers,
Barney
 
Hungry said:
All that slop will cause yer #### to fall off! :eek:

Nah, jes' kidding.... Hey, it's a battle rifle! It's built fer the zombie invasion, yo! Dis' be the heater o' the hood, yo! :D

Cheers,
Barney
Click to expand...

Haha well...I heard once that the bolt can be sloppy and wear only on one lug. So...I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting into those damaging situations

Side note...looks like Dirt McGirt is Hungry's other account :D

Another side note: Now I have visions to making a hood mount for my M14 on my truck...Haha
 
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