How much thump does your bullet need while hunting

Evanguy

Evanguy

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well, I'm not sure how to word this but hot much energy should a bullet have for hunting? should be enough fps to expand the bullet, or should it be a minimal FT-LB of energy

why I ask is I'm planning a goat/sheep hunt for next Sept for want to make sure I have enough gun for the job. I know lots of animals have been killed using what the shooter had it his hands but where I have a choice in the matter id like to pick a good option

I have lots of short range rifles heavy thumpers (375H&H, 43 express, 460 Weatherby, 500 Jeffery, .577 muzzle loader) but they all seem a bit over board and heavy so I don't want to carry them in the mountains.

and for smaller cartridges I don't have many with me in BC they are all stored in Nova Scotia, as I only wanted to bring a few rifles with me here. so for smaller bore centerfire I have 6.5x53R and 303 British

I'm building a classis sporting rifle that I was going to take with me on the trip, but now looking at the numbers it may not be enough gun its chambered in 6.5x53R (ballistic the same as a 6.5 Grendel)

I ran the numbers using a 129gr, 140gr and 160gr bullets and at 200 yards, its surprising how slow and little energy it has

so I ran the numbers for my 303br with 125gr, 150gr and 180gr, while the 180's and 150's showed promise that was only until I ran the numbers for a 300wm


so my options are-

take my 6.5x53R and run it as I want too

buy an old cool sporting rifle 500-800$ from tradex or intersurplus chambered in 7x61 or 7x64 or another neat older chambering (sako L61's look nice, as do the husky 1900's)

or buy a 500-800$ newish used rifle off the EE chambered in a magnum like a rem mag, win mag, weatherby mag, any of the .264 to .308 mags (entry level Savage, Remington, Winchester, beat up browning or tikka)




I plan to sight the rifle in at 200 yard and not shoot farther then 300 yards. here are the numbers for the 3 different 6.5mm bullets I have out to 300 yards

as you can see at 250 yards I have next to no power left. a 180gr in a 300WM has more thump at 450 yards then this at the muzzle.


Description 129gr 6.5x53R load
Bullet Style 129 sst
Bullet Weight (grains) 129 grs
G1 Ballistic Coefficient .485
Muzzle Velocity 2,400 fps

RANGE (YD) DROP (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT-LB)
0------ -0.8---- 0.0---- 2400---- 1650
50----- 2.0---- 0.2---- 2313---- 1533
100---- 3.1---- 0.9---- 2229---- 1423
150---- 2.5---- 2.0---- 2146---- 1319
200---- 0.0---- 3.5---- 2064---- 1221
250---- -4.6---- 5.6---- 1985---- 1128
300---- -11.1---- 8.0---- 1906---- 1041

Description 140gr 6.5x53R load
Bullet Style 140 sbt
Bullet Weight (grains) 140 grs
G1 Ballistic Coefficient .485
Muzzle Velocity 2,300 fps

RANGE (YD) DROP (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT-LB)
0------ -0.8---- -0.0---- 2300---- 1644
50----- 2.2---- 0.3---- 2216---- 1526
100---- 3.4---- 1.0---- 2133---- 1414
150---- 2.7---- 2.1---- 2052---- 1308
200---- 0.0---- 3.7---- 1972---- 1209
250---- -4.9---- 5.7---- 1894---- 1115
300---- -12.3---- 8.5---- 1819---- 1029


Description 160gr 6.5x53R load
Bullet Style 160 RN
Bullet Weight (grains) 160 grs
G1 Ballistic Coefficient .283
Muzzle Velocity 2,100 fps

RANGE (YD) DROP (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT-LB)
0----- -0.8---- 0.0---- 2100---- 1567
50----- 3.2---- 0.4---- 1963---- 1369
100---- 4.9---- 1.7---- 1832---- 1192
150---- 3.9---- 4.1---- 1708---- 1036
200---- 0.0---- 7.7---- 1590---- 898
250---- -7.3---- 12.2---- 1479---- 777
300---- -18.6---- 18.1---- 1378---- 674
 
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At 300 either one of those rifles will work well. 303 British is definitely capable of taking any deer or sheep in North America. The 6.5x53R is the same round as 6.5x54 Mannlicher just rimmed and has been used been used for a lot larger game than sheep.
But my theory is any excuse to buy another rifle is a good thing. So if you feel the need to buy another rifle go for it. I wouldn’t worry too much about the numbers as any common caliber such as 308 270 or 30-06 will work well as long as your not using light bullets.
 
I had read lots over the years about "pounds feet" energy, etc. I really think now, is about sufficient velocity to allow the bullet to expand. So, many bullets designed with a minimum 1,800 fps impact velocity. I think the Long Range Accubonds are designed around 1,300 fps impact velocity. Is a hard thing to do - target might pop up at 25 feet or at 600 yards - not many hunters going to swap out cartridges based on range - hence bullet expected to "do it all". I know my Dad took literal truck loads of white tail deer with 38-40 and 44-40 - so pretty anemic, to most numbers guys. I think, based on my brother's experience, that sheep are sort of like mule deer size - with shorter legs - but can expect live weight 250 to 350 pounds - like a stocky prairie whitetail. So, I would be leaning that your range limit would be based on impact speed - to let the bullet do it's thing - not so much about a calculated "energy" amount?
 
I think I'd use a different zero range than 200 yards for sheep/goat hunting. With the Hornady 129-gr. SST and a 200-yard zero range, your bullet will be 31.5" low at 400 yards. Also, limiting yourself to 300 yards maximum range may lead to lost chances on these animals. I'd definitely extend that to at least 400 yards.

I think you would be handicapping yourself with either of the cartridges you mentioned--the 6.5x53R and the .303 British. Neither is really a sheep/goat cartridge. In my opinion, you'd be better off going to Tradeex or InterSurplus and picking up a reasonably-priced .270 Win. (or possibly 7 Rem. Mag.). With the .270, a well-constructed 130-gr. bullet (like a Nosler Accubond or Partition) at about 3000 fps yields, with a 275-yard zero range, a drop at 400 yards of only about 13", and maintains about 1400 ft. lbs. of energy at 400 yards, definitely sufficient for sheep/goat-sized game.

There's the old rule of retained energy needed for various-sized game: 1500 ft. lbs. for elk and 1000 ft. lbs. for deer-sized game. I don't know whether this rule still applies with the recent advances in bullet design. Also, I gather that goats, although roughly the same size as deer, may be a little tougher and harder to put down.

Just some food for thought.
 
Thanks guys, gave me a few things to think about.

also I feel I should out this in here too. to add a little more info to help with reply's

goats are the main target, ill pass on sheep unless its clearly a full curl no question, I'm just adding the sheep tag on as its cheap and the time ill be there, there is a GOS for sheep and goats.

there is a good chance ill be hunting with iron sights, so 250 yards is about the max I would want to shoot and using iron sights I don't have to have to adjust for more the a few inches of bullet drop.

with a scope id go out to 350 yards tops, I haven't shot farther then 300 yards before, but this winter ill get practice as I have 400 yard field I can shoot in during the slow season.

goats are tough, I get that and that's why this was bright up, I see people using the 6.5 Grendel on elk but is often reamended against for goats. ill have the same weight bullets at the same fps

ideally id have a .284 or smaller bullet weighing about 130gr and traveling at or above 3000 fps. if I buy a rifle it will be chambered in something that can do that. (I wouldn't rule out a case that fires a .308" bullet but id want a 6.5 or 7mm)

and I don't mind rifles that thump, recoil isn't an issue for me, it just moves me out of the way. I'm 150 pounds soaking wet
 
The most common calibers I hear used for sheep would be 7-08, .308, .25-06, .270, .280(ai), .30-06, short mags, 7mm, .300wm
Longer shots with high BC bullets are common though it’s certainly possible to get in close. I took my sheep between 50-60yds using a 280ai with a 140AB and had a complete pass through.


A good option would be a scoped rifle with QD rings that is capable of 400-500yds. Remove the scope if you have a chance up close and decide to use irons.
 
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Following up on my earlier suggestions re rifles/cartridges, one that should also be considered is the 6.5x55. Tradeex and InterSurplus have a number of nice and reasonably-priced used rifles (mainly Husqvarna 1900s) in that cartridge. Loaded with 120-gr. bullets, the trajectory would be quite similar to that of the .270 Win. with 130-gr. bullets. Or you could go with the 129- or 130-gr. 6.5 mm bullets.
 
Time to get a proper sheep rifle out of storage. For something like $50-$70 you can ship your small bore sheep rifle to yourself from Nova Scotia to BC. Unless you just want an excuse to buy another rifle, something I completely understand. In that case one of the 7x64 Sako or Husky that you were eyeing up would be my vote.
 
I think the 6.5 Grendel is a great cartridge and certainly capable of killing a goat at reasonable ranges but you are really limiting yourself. Unless that is your intent, I would start somewhere around the 6.5 Creed and anything higher like a 6.5 PRC, 270, 7RM, whatever. I would also put a scope on the rifle.

One other consideration is that goat country is often grizzly country so having something a little more powerful than an intermediate cartridge like the Grendel may be comforting in the exceptionally rare event that you have a negative grizzly encounter.
 
Use a decent bullet, partition/A frame, and don't worry about velocity, make sure you practice at the ranges you think you will be shooting at, and you won't have any problems.
 
A neat old 7mm clambering, 7x57.

Run a 175 roundnose at probably 2500, down to say a 100gr at close to 3100. Try a 150 partition. Just like your rimmed cartridge, it's pretty much a reloader only caliber. Lots of questionable oldddd rifles, so factory fodder is anemic. Probably a decent $500 m98 rifle at tradex.

I've had two a Brno21 with double set triggers. One of two rifles I carried this year was a Ruger M77 mkii in 7x57.
 
When you consider the cost of a sheep/goat expedition, cheaping out on the rifle represents terrible economy. Spend some money on a decent rifle and scope in a good long range chambering and enough ammo to practice with it until you know the ballistics and are comfortable at various ranges, and learn to read the wind and understand the compensation required.
 
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250 yard shots at goats with barrel mounted (?) irons??? I don’t think the caliber is the major limiting factor you should consider changing

If someone’s does not practice shooting at 400 yards regularly from a bench at the range I think it is a little nuts to be suggesting 400 yard zeros for mountain wind conditions from a ruck prone ( guessing the Lee speed does not have a bipod). Ethical debates and shooting skills aside that is a considerable distance to be shooting at game so you should really consider setting yourself up for success with a scope at the bare minimum even if the engagement distance is 300 yards. Again a long distance in real life objectively to
shoot at a living thing, requires a consistent holdover of using MPBR or a dial in, hash mark or flip up express blade I guess

If you are willing to pass on longer shots you can use those guns for sure, it sounds like you know your limits well. Optics and a bigger MPBR will not hurt you, nor will practicing shooting from your ruck
 
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ok well after reading this I figure ill end up buying a rifle, I've been wanted to get a mid bore magnum for a little while now. but I really do want to use this 6.5x53r rifle on a hunt of a life time as its by far the most involved build I have ever done.

I like older stuff so I can see it being a tradeex type rifle (but im open to anything that seems interesting really). but using the 6.5x53r wouldn't be cheaping out on the rifle for sure, it may be under powdered but it is by far the nicest and most expensive rifle I own. (and its not even finished yet)

im not opposed to a scope and if when I buy a rifle (now that I have decided too) from tradeex or intersurplus ill make sure it has bases on it and I will add rings and a scope, I was just going iron sights if I was taking my 6.5x53r lee speed.

also cost wise of the trip I'm not too worried about that it will be a 12 day DIY GOS hunt, even if I don't shoot anything it will be an awesome 12 days I bet (ive only lived in BC for 8 months now, ill just to stoked to be out in the mountains)


south pender, I swear I'm not being difficult lol, but I have a light weight (6 pounds 2oz with scope and loaded) 6.5x55 in Nova Scotia with brass and dies, so I don't want to buy another one and need to get brass and dies again, ill be going back in a few years, I kept my house there.
 
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I think your 6.5 x 55 would be a perfect choice, but hey, I'm Swedish... Note that this caliber outshines a 308 out past 250 yards, and has a nice flat trajectory.
 
Have you ever hunted above timber line ? That is big country, and shots at 400 yrds are certainly needed on a lot of mountain hunts. If you just want the "mountain hunt" experience, take the 200 yrd rifle and hope you find a target within that distance...if you really "want a sheep", go prepared for the job and that will probably require a 300 WM or equivalent with a scope of modern production that will enable distant shots with confidence. All of my experience is AB. bighorns & shooting opportunities can be years apart, not hours or days such as deer are...BC Stone sheep might be a bit easier to get within seeing distance but I'm betting the difference is negligible....go prepared for the worst case scenario, if its better than that, so what, your still prepared. I can tell you that over many years of hunting sheep, for every shot I have had at a sheep, I've climbed 10 or 20 mountains. If you go unprepared for this hunt, I can guarantee you for the next one you will be so might as well git-er-done right the first time.
The thing about sheep hunting is that you may very well get that 200 yrd shot on the first mountain you climb or it might just as easily take 40 mountains climbed to find even a legal ram and I can guarantee you that by the time you climb your second mountain in 2 days and that ram shows up at 450-500 yrds your gonna wish you had a .300 with a minimum of 3-9 on it.
And Gatehouse, very good point on the grizzly encounters, I have had 3 grizz encounters in many mountain hunts and havent ever had to shoot but once it was very close ( a very adult male grizz standing upright & facing me and snapping his jaws...at 40 ft)....better to have enough gun and not use it than have not enough gun and have to use it.
 
Any one of those rifles will kill a goat or sheep. Or get somone to mail you your 6.5x55 it will kill any goat Alive and it sounds like a nice backpack rifle.

You don’t need the Hubble telescope either. If you can hit a big game animal at 100 yards with open sights, that’s the equivalent of a 6x at 600 yards…..further than anyone should be shooting without a lot of practice.

There is the odd opportunity for really long shots but the majority of sheep and goats are shot well under 300 yards.

Spend the money from a new rifle on good binos or spotting scope to make sure you don’t shoot a nanny or a short ram.
 
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Unless you want to you don’t need another rifle both calibers you suggested are plenty. You also don’t need to take long shots, I have gotten both species with archery gear. You will be limited in range, as you stated, and will have to hunt them not spot and shoot.

Look at the hornady 123gr eld-m and sst’s for your 6.5.
 
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