How rare is the 91/30 Sniper?
- Thread starter Ringwraith
- Start date
.30/06 FTW
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Thunder Bay, Ontario
Actual snipers were pretty rare but a shipment came in not too long ago. Most places are sold out but I think Reliable Gun in Vancouver has some. Westrifle has some replicas too.
samsplacci71
Regular
- Location
- Toronto area
Good luck on getting your PAL. The PU sniper is not rare. They run a few bills though. They pop up on the Equipment Exchange now and then. Some ppl expect more for their rifles than others. Do your research. There is a ton of it online. These are great shooting rifles. Surplus corrosive ammo is still quite cheap for them. I have 3 very different 91/30's, none snipers though. My advice is to never buy the story, simply buy the rifle / pistol for what it is. Welcome to the forum.
the recent batch are real although referbed they may not be totally original but they are difitinly real WW11 sniper rifles.Most or all the ones P&S have left do not have war dated scopes or i should say the date of manufacture is not on the scope
The market accepts rifles that are "configured" to be snipers, but few are actual rifles that were used as snipers. The rifles themselves have no problem lasting for centuries, but the scopes themselves didn't make the cut. Any original scopes are likely in poor shape and non-operational, as in broken seals and foggy or clouded.
However that said, A good Mosin rifle with a proper scope mount and a good quality replica scope can shoot just darn fine.
However that said, A good Mosin rifle with a proper scope mount and a good quality replica scope can shoot just darn fine.
An unrefurbed bringback should be a lot...but it isn't. The market is absolutely glutted with so many variations of Mosin snipers that buyers are pretty jaded. Most can not tell the real ones from the repros either.
Most people get into Russian rifles because they are cheap too..really nice SKS's and Mosins for around $200 for years..snipers are more but not big bucks.
I bought a Tula with SVT scope from P&S and am very happy with it. It may be a re-furb but so what? Would a Lee Enfield collector pass on a No. 4T because it had gone through an FTR? It has an as-new bore and the scope was absolutely perfectly zeroed- didn't have to touch a thing to hit targets at 400m.
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
^agree, mine is very nice also, for a plank with a barrel and scope on it! Really takes some time to learn to shoot the rifles compared to others, but when you do they are pretty decent. Mine has a war dated SVT scope on it. The optics are very clear and everything works well. I also bought mine from P&S, Jean is great to buy from, I have several times in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I believe this was the last one he had in stock with a war dated scope.
The thing is, a genuine russian original condition sniper would never see cgn or a show for sale. It would be sold for good money long before ever needing to resort to the web. Original russian stuff is not common here, and would be pricey. Id like an original 91/30 but not seen one for sale in ages. Excluding finns of course.
Yours is really nice looking flying pig.
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The Russian refurb 91/30 Snipers that came in are the difference in comparing a RC K98 to an all matching numbers vet bring back K98 in terms of quality and price.
There have been a few Original, not refurbed Russian 91/30 Snipers sell in the last couple years here in Canada.
Another example is Hungarian M52 Nagant Sniper.
There have been a few Original, not refurbed Russian 91/30 Snipers sell in the last couple years here in Canada.
Another example is Hungarian M52 Nagant Sniper.
Mr. Dynamite
CGN Regular
- Location
- Northern Alberta
So how would one tell the difference between an original and a refurb? I was recently at that Can Tire south of Edmonton where they have the MG 34, and they also had a number of scoped Mosins for 500 and change. Seeing them made me wonder how to tell what is what? They had the Mosin rifles for 150 as well. If the scoped ones are not original how are they worth 300-400 more just by adding a cheap little scope?
I have never seen an original, Russian, matching, non refurb 91/30 sniper in Canada. I have owned a mild refurb 44 tula with all its original parts and that is as close to original as I have managed to lay eyes on. I have seen pics of a few Hungarian, one Polish refurb & one ddr marked refurb one.
Mr. Dynamite
CGN Regular
- Location
- Northern Alberta
Yes, and that is what I am wondering, what shows they are refurb, what did they do in the refurb process? Did they stamp the gun showing where/when was refurbed? Thanks
The soviets disassembled a whole pile of worn rifles, refinished the parts, renumbered everything & reassembled the bits in to working rifles. A very high percentage of soviet arms have been refurbed at least once & usually more. Those crafty Russians also used refinished parts from older rifles in new production.
I sold one on the EE a few months ago. Original scope number on the barrel, unshellacked stock. A non refurb that had been in Canada for a long time. A real Russian sniper.
Nobody gave a crap about it.
As I said, there have been so many variations for sale over the last few years, most wouldn't know a real one if they tripped over it.
I have yet to see an all matching original btw. They always seem to be mismatched somehow.
Nobody gave a crap about it.
As I said, there have been so many variations for sale over the last few years, most wouldn't know a real one if they tripped over it.
I have yet to see an all matching original btw. They always seem to be mismatched somehow.
- Location
- Richmond, BC, CANADA
The Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles with PU scope. - do your homework as there are many pitfalls - as with any sniper rifles!
By the way, the term Mosin-Nagant, although it is the common name, it is incorrect. The Soviets/Russians never called them that. It is a term applied by North Americans etc. Mosin is pronounced "Mow-zeen".
Reference books:
- For Collectors Only The Mosin-Nagant Rifle by Terence W. Lapin Now in at least its 6th Edition, with a bright yellow cover. By North Cape Publications. 268 pages. Excellent and covers each part of the rifle however it is weak in two areas, slings and sniper rifles.
- The Official Mosin-Nagant Soviet Sniper Rifle Manual translation by Major James F. Gebhardt, Paladin Press
- Sniper on the Eastern Front, memoirs of Sepp Allerberger, Knights Cross. (German sniper who used a Mosin 91/30)
- Red Sniper on the Eastern Front The Memoirs of Joseph Pilyushin
- Notes of a Russian Sniper by Vasili Zaitsev. (The movie "Enemy at the Gates" is a fictionalized account of his life). In the movie he uses the Mosin 91/30 with PU scope, and note that the cover of the DVD has the rifle reversed with the bolt on the left side!). Interestingly Vasili used a Mosin 91/30 with an earlier scope (PT or VP / PEM) and the semi-automatic SVT rifle.
Web Sites:
http://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com
http://7.62x54r.com *************** Superb reference.
http://forums.gunboards.com thread: Guide to Russian Optics Manufacturers.
About 185,000 Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles were made, using various scopes, between 1932 and 1947. Compare this to only about 26,000 Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifles.
Broad classes of Moisn 91/30 sniper rifles with PU scope.
1. ORIGINAL AS MANUFACTURED - An all original war souvenir as it left the factory with original finish, matched stamped serial numbers and the scope that was originally fitted to it. Historically this is the most authentic and SHOULD be the most desirable in terms of collector demand, although it will not usually be the best condition. If it had capture markings (e.g. German or Finnish) that would make it even more desirable to a collector like myself.
2. ORIGINAL ARSENAL RECONDITIONED - Soviet surplus rifle out of war reserves where it had been reconditioned during or after WWII and placed in storage for World War III. Often the serial numbered parts were renumbered (force matched) and the scopes might have been switched. 2013 value in Canada $700 plus tax and up. Supply and demand. Contrary to what some say, these too are ORIGINAL sniper rifles. Variations regarding how factory original the serial numbers are, how many wood repairs there are etc.
3. EX-SNIPER made back into a sniper by a collector. The Soviets made so many sniper rifles that they actually converted some back to standard infantry rifles. These may be recognized by the plugged scope mount screw holes in the left side of the receiver. When restored, replica scope mounts are usually used and either an original surplus or a replica PU scope. Naturally even if a real scope, the scope is not the original one that was factory fitted to this rifle (barring a 1:185,000 miracle!) Ex-Snipers are frequently mentioned in U.S. forums.
4. FAKE SNIPERS. These are original rifles that were NEVER were a sniper while in service. Someone has cut the wood notch on the left side to clear the mount (look for fresh wood cut edges), added a scope mount (real oir more likely replica) and scope (real or more likely replica.) 2013 value in Canada about $500 at most. An analogy is the Savage Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. I rifles which had the pads installed for the No. 32 sniper telescope but which never had the scopes fitted while in service. These were "unfinished" snipers
Mosin 91/30 with the large scopes (e.g. PE) were made from 1932 to about 1938. The Soviets then switched to the SVT-38, then SVT-40 sniper rifles with PU (stepped) scopes. The in 1942 the Soviets realizing that the SVT sniper rifles were not their best solution reverted to the Mosin 91/30 sniper rifle, this time with PU scopes. Some had the stepped PU removed from SVT sniper rifles and most had new non-stepped PU scopes. Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles with PU scopes were made by Izhevsk and by Tula starting in 1942. The Tula are more scarce and usually more desirable - partly because they are actually marked as a sniper rifle i.e. "CH" above the serial number on the top of the barrel. Earlier date of 1942 tends to be preferred by collectors as "they COULD have been used at Stalingrad or other major battles." On the other hand, the Izhevsk made Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifles had the serial number of the PU scope stamped into the left side of the barrel near the rear end.
ALL of the Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles were ROUND not HEXAGONAL and HIGH-WALL (left side of receiver).
SERIAL NUMBERS
There are FOUR (4) serial numbers on the rifle. Bolt, barrel (not receiver as in North America), butt-plate and magazine floor-plate. ALL four should of course match.
The serial numbers had a two letter prefix and these two letters appears at the start of each of the four serial numbers as it left the factory. During refurbishment, parts were sometimes switched and then as they were supposed to match, were "force matched" usually stamped BUT sometimes the magazinefloor plate and butt-plate would have the numbers only of the serial number and not the two letter prefix. GOAL - All four numbers STAMPED and matching and with the two-letter p[refix on all four.
BAYONET - The Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles were NOT issued with a bayonet. The Soviet bayonet issued with the infantry 91/30 was issued without a scabbard (The Finns made scabbards for some captured bayonets).
SLING - Most Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifles in Canada are sold without a sling. The Mosin 91/30 slings have a centre long section and two "dog-collars" (one at each end) to attach the sling to the rifle through slots in the stock. There are many variations of sling so finding a war-time one is a challenge. Wartime photos show that Soviet snipers sometimes used SVT slings on the Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles.
TULA arsenal mark, a STAR with an arrow inside pointing up.
IZHEVSK arsenal mark with the TRIANGLE and an arrow inside it pointing up.
Arsenal refurbishment marks are best seen on 7.62x54r.com which illustrates every know mark and explains it. Usually it is a square with a diagonal line or an X inside.
PU Scopes
The early PU scopes 1940-1942 made for the SVT-38 and SVT-40 rifles have TWO external diameters, creating a "stepped" appearance. The PU scopes made for the 91/30 sniper rifles were of a SINGLE diameter. If a Mosin 91/30 was fitted with a stepped SVT PU scope, then shims were added. War time scopes are sometimes dated so it is more desirable to have a scope of the same or earlier year than the rifle. The symbols identifying the scope factories are explained on the http://forums.gunboards.com thread: Guide to Russian Optics Manufacturers. The Soviet coat of arms (hammer, sickle and 5 pointed star representing the five-continents that the USSR intended to dominate) was on most Soviet optics. Replica scopes are sometimes of better quality and are often marked "MADE IN RUSSIA". Post-war civilian scopes sometimes have larger at one end but wartime scopes were a single diameter throughout (except for the stepped SVT version)
The scope does not have the rifle's serial number, however on most refurbished Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles, the rifle serial number is electo-pencilled onto the scope mount. This tells you that it left the arsenal with that rifle/scope combination. Collectors usually prefer to find a rifle without the electro pencilled markings.
Many of the original arsenal reconditioned rifles that have come to Canada in 2012-2013 came from MOLOT in white cardboard boxes. The Russian label translates roughly as sporting or hunting rifle. Included are wrapped rifle, wrapped scope on mount, wrapped oil bottle and wrapped tools. No sling or bayonet. Most importantly is a little white and blue manual in Russian which summarizes Soviet sniper manuals and near the back are two pages with numbers and dates filled in by hand. Here are the serial number of the rifle and the serial number of the scope, confirming that they left the former USSR as a set. If your rifle came with the manual KEEP THE MANUAL WITH THE RIFLE if it ever goes to a new owner! On my first Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifle the dealer sold my manual and box with another sniper rifle that had a similar serial number. :-(
There are many replica accessories out there e.g. scope covers but as the Soviets made so many sniper rifles, there are also original accessories if you look for them. As always "Caveat emptor" (buyer beware).
Now there are differing opinions (of course!) Some believe that original surplus scopes are available whereas others feel that they are ALL fakes - with fake markings and dates. All I can say is that I judge them when I see them - looking for true signs of age.
Wartime PU scopes - the sight post and lines MOVE when you turn the dials. Not all have the dates marked on them. War time scopes do NOT say MADE IN RUSSIA.
On modern copies they apparently remain in the centre of the view field. I have heard the new scopes have a blue tint. They are nitrogen filled and can be of good qulaity.
If you are buying an SVT-40 sniper look for:
1. Rails (grooves on both sides of the upper receiver) These are common on 1940-1942 SVT-40 rifles.
2. ORIGINAL Sniper notch. This is rare and is a notch in the top rear of the receiver and was for the locking pin. There are two shapes known to me - one with a "flat" bottom and sometimes with a stamped marking at the bottom. There is also a rounded notch style. This feature is easily and often faked as it trebles the the value of the rifle. So one needs to look carefully at the quality of the work and the finish.
3. An original PU scope with the stepped" tube. You want to find one that was not recalibrated for the Mosin 91/30 (those have a different scale interval and the letters "CB" stamped into the side of the dial.
4. Original SVT scope mounts are extremely rare and expensive so chances are it will have a replica mount.
By the way, the term Mosin-Nagant, although it is the common name, it is incorrect. The Soviets/Russians never called them that. It is a term applied by North Americans etc. Mosin is pronounced "Mow-zeen".
Reference books:
- For Collectors Only The Mosin-Nagant Rifle by Terence W. Lapin Now in at least its 6th Edition, with a bright yellow cover. By North Cape Publications. 268 pages. Excellent and covers each part of the rifle however it is weak in two areas, slings and sniper rifles.
- The Official Mosin-Nagant Soviet Sniper Rifle Manual translation by Major James F. Gebhardt, Paladin Press
- Sniper on the Eastern Front, memoirs of Sepp Allerberger, Knights Cross. (German sniper who used a Mosin 91/30)
- Red Sniper on the Eastern Front The Memoirs of Joseph Pilyushin
- Notes of a Russian Sniper by Vasili Zaitsev. (The movie "Enemy at the Gates" is a fictionalized account of his life). In the movie he uses the Mosin 91/30 with PU scope, and note that the cover of the DVD has the rifle reversed with the bolt on the left side!). Interestingly Vasili used a Mosin 91/30 with an earlier scope (PT or VP / PEM) and the semi-automatic SVT rifle.
Web Sites:
http://russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com
http://7.62x54r.com *************** Superb reference.
http://forums.gunboards.com thread: Guide to Russian Optics Manufacturers.
About 185,000 Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles were made, using various scopes, between 1932 and 1947. Compare this to only about 26,000 Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. I (T) sniper rifles.
Broad classes of Moisn 91/30 sniper rifles with PU scope.
1. ORIGINAL AS MANUFACTURED - An all original war souvenir as it left the factory with original finish, matched stamped serial numbers and the scope that was originally fitted to it. Historically this is the most authentic and SHOULD be the most desirable in terms of collector demand, although it will not usually be the best condition. If it had capture markings (e.g. German or Finnish) that would make it even more desirable to a collector like myself.
2. ORIGINAL ARSENAL RECONDITIONED - Soviet surplus rifle out of war reserves where it had been reconditioned during or after WWII and placed in storage for World War III. Often the serial numbered parts were renumbered (force matched) and the scopes might have been switched. 2013 value in Canada $700 plus tax and up. Supply and demand. Contrary to what some say, these too are ORIGINAL sniper rifles. Variations regarding how factory original the serial numbers are, how many wood repairs there are etc.
3. EX-SNIPER made back into a sniper by a collector. The Soviets made so many sniper rifles that they actually converted some back to standard infantry rifles. These may be recognized by the plugged scope mount screw holes in the left side of the receiver. When restored, replica scope mounts are usually used and either an original surplus or a replica PU scope. Naturally even if a real scope, the scope is not the original one that was factory fitted to this rifle (barring a 1:185,000 miracle!) Ex-Snipers are frequently mentioned in U.S. forums.
4. FAKE SNIPERS. These are original rifles that were NEVER were a sniper while in service. Someone has cut the wood notch on the left side to clear the mount (look for fresh wood cut edges), added a scope mount (real oir more likely replica) and scope (real or more likely replica.) 2013 value in Canada about $500 at most. An analogy is the Savage Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. I rifles which had the pads installed for the No. 32 sniper telescope but which never had the scopes fitted while in service. These were "unfinished" snipers
Mosin 91/30 with the large scopes (e.g. PE) were made from 1932 to about 1938. The Soviets then switched to the SVT-38, then SVT-40 sniper rifles with PU (stepped) scopes. The in 1942 the Soviets realizing that the SVT sniper rifles were not their best solution reverted to the Mosin 91/30 sniper rifle, this time with PU scopes. Some had the stepped PU removed from SVT sniper rifles and most had new non-stepped PU scopes. Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles with PU scopes were made by Izhevsk and by Tula starting in 1942. The Tula are more scarce and usually more desirable - partly because they are actually marked as a sniper rifle i.e. "CH" above the serial number on the top of the barrel. Earlier date of 1942 tends to be preferred by collectors as "they COULD have been used at Stalingrad or other major battles." On the other hand, the Izhevsk made Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifles had the serial number of the PU scope stamped into the left side of the barrel near the rear end.
ALL of the Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles were ROUND not HEXAGONAL and HIGH-WALL (left side of receiver).
SERIAL NUMBERS
There are FOUR (4) serial numbers on the rifle. Bolt, barrel (not receiver as in North America), butt-plate and magazine floor-plate. ALL four should of course match.
The serial numbers had a two letter prefix and these two letters appears at the start of each of the four serial numbers as it left the factory. During refurbishment, parts were sometimes switched and then as they were supposed to match, were "force matched" usually stamped BUT sometimes the magazinefloor plate and butt-plate would have the numbers only of the serial number and not the two letter prefix. GOAL - All four numbers STAMPED and matching and with the two-letter p[refix on all four.
BAYONET - The Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles were NOT issued with a bayonet. The Soviet bayonet issued with the infantry 91/30 was issued without a scabbard (The Finns made scabbards for some captured bayonets).
SLING - Most Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifles in Canada are sold without a sling. The Mosin 91/30 slings have a centre long section and two "dog-collars" (one at each end) to attach the sling to the rifle through slots in the stock. There are many variations of sling so finding a war-time one is a challenge. Wartime photos show that Soviet snipers sometimes used SVT slings on the Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles.
TULA arsenal mark, a STAR with an arrow inside pointing up.
IZHEVSK arsenal mark with the TRIANGLE and an arrow inside it pointing up.
Arsenal refurbishment marks are best seen on 7.62x54r.com which illustrates every know mark and explains it. Usually it is a square with a diagonal line or an X inside.
PU Scopes
The early PU scopes 1940-1942 made for the SVT-38 and SVT-40 rifles have TWO external diameters, creating a "stepped" appearance. The PU scopes made for the 91/30 sniper rifles were of a SINGLE diameter. If a Mosin 91/30 was fitted with a stepped SVT PU scope, then shims were added. War time scopes are sometimes dated so it is more desirable to have a scope of the same or earlier year than the rifle. The symbols identifying the scope factories are explained on the http://forums.gunboards.com thread: Guide to Russian Optics Manufacturers. The Soviet coat of arms (hammer, sickle and 5 pointed star representing the five-continents that the USSR intended to dominate) was on most Soviet optics. Replica scopes are sometimes of better quality and are often marked "MADE IN RUSSIA". Post-war civilian scopes sometimes have larger at one end but wartime scopes were a single diameter throughout (except for the stepped SVT version)
The scope does not have the rifle's serial number, however on most refurbished Mosin 91/30 sniper rifles, the rifle serial number is electo-pencilled onto the scope mount. This tells you that it left the arsenal with that rifle/scope combination. Collectors usually prefer to find a rifle without the electro pencilled markings.
Many of the original arsenal reconditioned rifles that have come to Canada in 2012-2013 came from MOLOT in white cardboard boxes. The Russian label translates roughly as sporting or hunting rifle. Included are wrapped rifle, wrapped scope on mount, wrapped oil bottle and wrapped tools. No sling or bayonet. Most importantly is a little white and blue manual in Russian which summarizes Soviet sniper manuals and near the back are two pages with numbers and dates filled in by hand. Here are the serial number of the rifle and the serial number of the scope, confirming that they left the former USSR as a set. If your rifle came with the manual KEEP THE MANUAL WITH THE RIFLE if it ever goes to a new owner! On my first Mosin 91/30 PU sniper rifle the dealer sold my manual and box with another sniper rifle that had a similar serial number. :-(
There are many replica accessories out there e.g. scope covers but as the Soviets made so many sniper rifles, there are also original accessories if you look for them. As always "Caveat emptor" (buyer beware).
Now there are differing opinions (of course!) Some believe that original surplus scopes are available whereas others feel that they are ALL fakes - with fake markings and dates. All I can say is that I judge them when I see them - looking for true signs of age.
Wartime PU scopes - the sight post and lines MOVE when you turn the dials. Not all have the dates marked on them. War time scopes do NOT say MADE IN RUSSIA.
On modern copies they apparently remain in the centre of the view field. I have heard the new scopes have a blue tint. They are nitrogen filled and can be of good qulaity.
If you are buying an SVT-40 sniper look for:
1. Rails (grooves on both sides of the upper receiver) These are common on 1940-1942 SVT-40 rifles.
2. ORIGINAL Sniper notch. This is rare and is a notch in the top rear of the receiver and was for the locking pin. There are two shapes known to me - one with a "flat" bottom and sometimes with a stamped marking at the bottom. There is also a rounded notch style. This feature is easily and often faked as it trebles the the value of the rifle. So one needs to look carefully at the quality of the work and the finish.
3. An original PU scope with the stepped" tube. You want to find one that was not recalibrated for the Mosin 91/30 (those have a different scale interval and the letters "CB" stamped into the side of the dial.
4. Original SVT scope mounts are extremely rare and expensive so chances are it will have a replica mount.
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