How to kick a** with M14 irons sights (and grade 4 math)

M1/M14 Hardened 1/2 Minute Elevation Sight Disc

Anyone using one of these? I have one, just haven't made time to try it.

creedmoorsports.com/shop/M1-M14_Hardened_1-2_Minute_Elevation_Sight_Disc.html

M
 
I just purchased an m-14 and was wondering how accurate these are out of the box? I'm not new to shooting and am wondering what's the deal about eveyone talking about headspacing issues. I am also thinking on reloading for this as well. I'm new here, not sure if there's another thread abouit this. I want this rifle as my bush gun.

great info!
 
Nice summary of the garand marksmanship video from 1942. The video takes about 45 mins to explain that so it was a good quick summary and refresher. And to the guy who mentioned the vid he was looking for (part 2 is the explanation of windage and zeroing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoZ_usoFVSc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bmdxZwvkoQ
 
us newbie's thank u for this info.....

Beining somewhat of a new shooter (only the last 6 years or so) i decided to purchase my first rifle. After much thought of what I wanted in a rifle I fell upon the M14/M305. Much had been written about it both here on on many other sites, and after some debate I am a proud owner of a new Poly M305 that I have fixed with a fantastic Promag Archangel stock. Wow! What a rifle! And talk about fun to shoot! I'm very happy with the purchase.

As it turns out, its shooting quite well right 'out of the box' once I figured out the sights. Im no pro but with 7 out of 15 into an 8" group at 300m shooting 150 grain Fedral ammo with the iron sights.... thats pretty good for me (and a dead dear/bear/moose/elk..etc! if I choose:). But then again I didnt have my glasses on and could hardly see the target in the low light of the mountians at dusk....re: 'Old guys, I know you cant see anymore;)'

None the less, after running a couple of hundred of rounds through this unit the questions I had about these sights have been answered in fine detail in your post below.

As you say, these may just be the best 'irons' in the gun world. Im betting a scope would take away from the fun if this rifle.


Thanks again and happy shoot'n!


I thought I would post this because I don't see very many M14's around that aren't scoped. It and the M1 have the greatest irons ever put on a rifle!!

* EDIT* Old guys, I know you cant see anymore;) did not mean to pick on you.

I know not everybody has been in the service or really had the instruction to become lethal with irons so here it is. Get yourself a nice Garand rear sight and have at er.

This is the base formula for these standard issue rifle sights (M14/Garand).
1 click changes the impact of the bullet approx 1" @ 100m/y
M14 sight is graduated in meters M1 sight in yards.

Elevation adjustment range: 0-72 clicks
Windage adjustment range: 16 clicks L or R of center index.

With your rear sight windage index lined up in the center, adjust your front sight side to side until you are shooting exactly center line. This is best done at 25m from a rest at a piece of 1" wide vertical tape.

For Bullseye zero: Zero @ 100m (usually 6-8 clicks up from bottom).
Elevation: Once you are in the bull @ 100m with a 6 o'clock hold, dial the elevation all the way down while carefully counting the number of clicks. REMEMBER THIS NUMBER IT IS YOUR ZERO! Dial the elevation back up, again counting the clicks. Now loosen your elev knob pinion screw while firmly holding the aperture in place and set the dial to the 100m mark. Tighten the screw and fire on target to confirm zero. All of your sight adjustments will now work off this specific number of clicks which is your zero. Remember that every rifle will be slightly different.

Hungry here: I like to tighten the (single hand tight , not 2 hands...) elevation pinion screw, then bottom out your aperture, tighten up more. Crank up your aperture all the way to the top, then tighten up AGAIN!

For battle zero: Zero @ 250m (usually 12-13 clicks up from bottom)
Then shoot point of aim. Allows for engagement of man sized targets from 0-400m by aiming center mass. This is of course not for precision shooting.



Using the sight working off your bullseye zero.
Range 200: 1 click = 2"
Range 300: 1 click = 3"
Range 400: 1 click = 4"
Range 500: 1 click = 5"
Range 600: 1 click = 6"
and so on.

M14 issue rifle 22" barrel 26" sight radius.

Range 200: Your shot hits 8" low. Raise elevation 4 clicks, fire.
Range 500: Your shot hits 15" low. Raise elevation 3 clicks, fire.
Range 600: Your shot hits a foot high. Lower elevation 2 clicks, fire.
Range 300: Your shot hits 9" high. Do the math:D Fire!

You always round up your clicks. Range 400: Your shot hits 10" high. You will lower elevation 3 clicks not 2.

Once you've mastered the grade 4 math calculations you can hit the range.
Target 500m. You turn your elevation knob to the 500m mark to engage a target at that distance and fire a spotting round.
Your spotter tells you it missed, 20" low, correction 4 clicks elevation, fire.
Once you become one with your rifle you will know the number of comeups (clicks) from zero required to make hits at certain distances. You can put them on a small laminated card and tape it to the stock. As long as you have that info you can simply estimate range, dial in and actually make a first round hit on target with that particular rifle.
Example: Target 400m, +16, fire.

Always reset your rifle back to its zero (and the windage back to center) when finished. If you cant remember write it on your rifle stock. Once you get good at this you will be able to make hits at varying distances very quickly.

Hungry here: At 100yds/meters, use every attempt to mechanically center your rear sight base with respect to the vernier scale (I like Whiteout or model paint) that is easier to read. Then zero for windage by (allen key to loosen) tweaking the front sight in the opposite direction you want the MPI or bullet strike to move into. This is for very serious competition or for you perfection addicts! :D LOL

Windage knob Corrections
Formula is the same: 1 click L or R @ 100m shifts bullet impact approx 1"
@200m - 1 click = 2"
@300m - 1 click = 3"
and so on.

Correcting for Wind G.I. formula

Range X Windspeed divided by 10 = Number of clicks.

Winds coming from 12 and 6 o'clock have little effect. No correction.
Winds coming from 1,5,7,11 o' clock have a slight effect. Half correction.
Winds coming from 2,3,4, and 8,9,10 o'clock have greatest effect. Full correction.

Range 500:
Wind: 6 mph
Direction: 9 o'clock

5X6 = 30 div 10 = 3

Answer: 3 clicks, full correction, left windage

If it was a 1 o'clock wind it would be a half correction (1.5 clicks) On a standard GI sight that wont go so remember, round up your clicks.
It would be 2 clicks, right windage.

Test
Range 400, 5 o'clock wind 18mph. Your first shot is a foot low and to the left of the target. How would you adjust your sights to try to make a hit with the next shot?:D


National match sights

They are 1/2 MOA per click GI are 1 MOA per click. Just X everything by 2.

Hungry if I missed anything please add it.

Hungry here: Pretty darn good, I must say. I'm still looking! :D
 
Great, I could not attend any clinics, family commitments, Got into hand loading know i'm hooked. Norinco M305 2009 Cammo. 168 bthp hand loads, is the best , recommend loads from m14 shooters worked fine. Loaded some for my 1955 Breda, M1 Garand, 1983 300 winmag sako deluxe.VERY HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS.HAPPY TIMES. The newer norincos seem to be ok. 2012 models the rear sights are ok , on mine i had to replace the windage & elevation knobs.Seen a new shorty at range , like it.The last visit loaded some 175 bthp 43.1 r15 OAL 2.820 my gun run fine. These are American M14 sniper near duplicates M118 for 1000 yards. The 168 bthp 42gr r15, oal 2.82 are more accurate. To the moderator if this is to much info on the loading , just delete that part. When hand loading do not fill to the full case capacity.KABOOM, I KNOW three poeple, Pepere, cousine, neighbour, luckly no deaths some powder burns I did lots of research before I start to load.
 
I have an M1 Garand with iron sights, and I absolutely love it, it's a dream to shoot and I prefer it's style over any other iron sights I've used. I can't wait to use this info to help get a perfect zero, and accurately adjust when I really wanna reach out and touch something.

Also the laminate card is a great tool to use, I've been using it on my long range rifle since I first saw it about a year ago.
 
Shooting the M-1 in the real world:

This thread is well-written. The OP and contributors have done an excellent job of providing very useful background information for understanding the workings of these aperture sights. It's all helpful if you're interested in playing a game of inches.

I went through US Army Basic Infantry Training with the M-1 rifle in the early 1960s. The goal of our training was to enable us to put our enemies out of action anywhere from 25 to 350 yards. The Army was not interested in training us to be snipers--they were "teaching to the mean" of the average raw recruit fresh off the streets. The approach was "Keep it simple but effective".

Once we had our "battlesight zero" established we never had to change any of our sight settings for the duration of our training. In the anticipated real world firefight scenario we weren't going to have time to be adjusting our elevation drums in order to hit people running around at various ranges. Instead, they taught us to use 'hold-overs' to change our POA according to the opponents' distance.
For example, any target presenting itself at 100 to ~250 yards away, the POA was 'Center of Mass' (e.g. 'belt buckle'). Those popping up at 25 yards, go for the knees and we'd score a hit every time. Those out at 300 to 350 were more of a challenge, but if you aimed at the forehead (and did everything else right) they'd usually go down too.
We practiced quite a bit over the course of those eight weeks and learned our M-1s inside and out. The "Train Fire" program the Army was using at the time had three performance standards: "Marksman" (pass) "Sharpshooter" (very good) and "Expert Rifleman".
I was fortunate enough to attain the 'Expert' rating, partly because I'd already been a gun nut before I joined, and I'd received my introduction to shooting five years earlier from an uncle who was actively serving in the 101st Airborne at that time.

Anyway, long story short, that's how we were trained. When I arrived at my TO&E armored unit in Germany I was issued the M-14 which had become the US standard service rifle, and the Army had gone all 'metric', but the principles were still the same. Eventually I worked my way up to become the commander of an M-60A1 tank, and guess what--the principles of tank gunnery were pretty much the same as those we learned in Basic.
 
This thread is well-written. The OP and contributors have done an excellent job of providing very useful background information for understanding the workings of these aperture sights. It's all helpful if you're interested in playing a game of inches.

I went through US Army Basic Infantry Training with the M-1 rifle in the early 1960s. The goal of our training was to enable us to put our enemies out of action anywhere from 25 to 350 yards. The Army was not interested in training us to be snipers--they were "teaching to the mean" of the average raw recruit fresh off the streets. The approach was "Keep it simple but effective".

Once we had our "battlesight zero" established we never had to change any of our sight settings for the duration of our training. In the anticipated real world firefight scenario we weren't going to have time to be adjusting our elevation drums in order to hit people running around at various ranges. Instead, they taught us to use 'hold-overs' to change our POA according to the opponents' distance.
For example, any target presenting itself at 100 to ~250 yards away, the POA was 'Center of Mass' (e.g. 'belt buckle'). Those popping up at 25 yards, go for the knees and we'd score a hit every time. Those out at 300 to 350 were more of a challenge, but if you aimed at the forehead (and did everything else right) they'd usually go down too.
We practiced quite a bit over the course of those eight weeks and learned our M-1s inside and out. The "Train Fire" program the Army was using at the time had three performance standards: "Marksman" (pass) "Sharpshooter" (very good) and "Expert Rifleman".
I was fortunate enough to attain the 'Expert' rating, partly because I'd already been a gun nut before I joined, and I'd received my introduction to shooting five years earlier from an uncle who was actively serving in the 101st Airborne at that time.

Anyway, long story short, that's how we were trained. When I arrived at my TO&E armored unit in Germany I was issued the M-14 which had become the US standard service rifle, and the Army had gone all 'metric', but the principles were still the same. Eventually I worked my way up to become the commander of an M-60A1 tank, and guess what--the principles of tank gunnery were pretty much the same as those we learned in Basic.

And just out of interest what was the battle-sight zero the standard 100?
 
You just want to hit the guy once.

An amazing amount of words are now available regarding how to set battlesight zero for the M-1, much of it confusing or contradictory. Should it be at 100yd, 200yd, or even 300yd?? OK, remember, it's been over 50 years since I did that marksmanship training, but IIRC the quick & dirty way of checking your battlesight was to come up 1" from the center of your 25yd zero group. That was supposed to have you hitting man-sized forms at all ranges from 0 to 400 yd. Seems hard to believe, I know, but if you use those aiming points I discussed, those bad guys won't be bothering you again. Remember, nobody will be scoring your results with a micrometer. Just as in hockey, if the puck goes into the net, it's a goal. You hit a human with a shot of 30-06 ball ammo, he's essentially 'out of the game'. He won't care where you hit him.
 
Wow, thank you for all of the great information on here! As a new owner of a M305, I was fortunate enough to find a scope mount for it that has a groove machined out of the bottom so I can still use my iron sights. I will admit I have not tried them yet and was focusing on zeroing my scope but you can bet thats the first thing I am going to try my next trip out to the range!
 
Now you've two ways to score hits.

That's the ideal setup, if you can "co-witness" the two sighting systems.
With the rifle immovably planted on the bench,You may want to try zeroing your scope at 25 yd, then clicking your peepsight until it coincides
with the centre of the group you just made using the scope. That way, if your scope ever craps out during an engagement,you can instantly switch to your irons and still score a hit, as long as your 'targets' agree to hold still. But remember, your scope is ~1-1/2" above your bore but the iron sights are not (the end result will not matter).
 
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