For you rimfire benchrest shooters, how do you measure your rimfire ammo and in what order do you perform your tests? Is it by weight, length, rim thickness and is it in an order like that? The reason I ask is in testing to find a relatively cheap brand that my CIL 180 likes, I find that all brands will group around 3/4" to 1" including fliers at 50m but the central group tends to stay around 7/16". Can those fliers be weeded out by measuring the loaded ammo first?
How to measure for fliers?
- Thread starter denydart
- Start date
John,
Sorting ammo is a complete waste of time. Instead, you have to find a brand/lot of ammo that will group well in your rifle.
What is the ''relatively cheap brand that your 180 likes'' ?
Also, when you test for accuracy, you have to make sure everything is OK: Are the winds quiet ? Do you have a good rest ? Is your barrel free-floated ? The bedding is OK ? Do you have a scope that is powerful enough ? Is your barrel clean ?
Your 180 should do better than what you get now. I'm sure that with proper ammo and technique, you could get an average around .40''-.50''
Sorting ammo is a complete waste of time. Instead, you have to find a brand/lot of ammo that will group well in your rifle.
What is the ''relatively cheap brand that your 180 likes'' ?
Also, when you test for accuracy, you have to make sure everything is OK: Are the winds quiet ? Do you have a good rest ? Is your barrel free-floated ? The bedding is OK ? Do you have a scope that is powerful enough ? Is your barrel clean ?
Your 180 should do better than what you get now. I'm sure that with proper ammo and technique, you could get an average around .40''-.50''
- Location
- NOVA SCOTIA, CANADA
I use a rim thickness gage to sort ammo to the same size rim.(see pics on EE of other stuff,search GAIRLOCHIAN).It reduces flyers in my 1407 Anschutz.
cz452shooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Sparwood, BC
My experiences with weighing ammo and sorting by rim thickness is that it doesn't work very well at all. Too many other factors that affect it that should be put way ahead of this.
It also depends on what you mean by relatively cheap. For me relatively cheap are the brands like Lapua Superclub, Eley Practice, and the other lower end target ammunition. Try a couple of these lower quality target ammos and see if you find a brand that your gun shoots well with. Once you find a good brand, try experimenting with lot numbers and try to find a decent lot.
GAIRLOCHIAN,
I would LOVE to see pics of a string of 5 groups shot in your 1407 with unsorted ammo and another one with sorted ammo so that we could see the difference.
What will be the maximum variation in rim thickness in a box of quality ammo ? .003'' ? That means that the rims will vary from .040'' to .043''. You really think that this variation (7.5%) in rim thickness will be greater on the target ?
I would LOVE to see pics of a string of 5 groups shot in your 1407 with unsorted ammo and another one with sorted ammo so that we could see the difference.
What will be the maximum variation in rim thickness in a box of quality ammo ? .003'' ? That means that the rims will vary from .040'' to .043''. You really think that this variation (7.5%) in rim thickness will be greater on the target ?
- Location
- NOVA SCOTIA, CANADA
The gage I use has a tapered bar which slides over the rim.In a box of 50 Lapua Super Club there will be 4 or 5 that are .2 mm larger or smaller than the rest.I shoot Match rifle targets prone with a sling @ 20 yds indoors in competion.Match rifle targets are a 10 bull target with a dot for the 10 ring.Even a slight flyer will miss the dot.When I measure my ammo and do my part my scores are better.I dont shoot this rifle off a bench for groups.Sighting in is done prone with a target sling to ensure rifle is sighted properly in the prone position.
Thank you all for responding. I confess I'm not looking for match accuracy, just better long range hunting performance. I use this gun almost exclusively for starlings in trees and would like to extend my effective range to 80 or 90 yards instead of 50 because those damn birds are already used to me this season. When I say cheaper brands I'm refering to Rem. Yellow Jackets, CCI Stingers and Win. SuperX UHV. I have tried Lapua Midas and Master, Eley Target as well as RWS Target and get the 3/8" to 1/2" groups with the occasional flier. I have begun testing inside my barn at 40 yards and like I wrote, all the the "cheaper" stuff's central groups are really good it's just the more abundant fliers that open things up.
I realize that high quality match ammo will be the most uniform and may defy inspection for weight and other variations. This makes me assume that lower quality ammo may be easier to sort by those methods and may help in getting more consistent performance.
As far as the rifle itself goes, the muzzle has been re-crowned, the action and 2" of barrel are Acraglass bedded - the rest floated, the action screws are torqued to 35 inch/lb, I've adjusted the trigger down to the 1.5lb range and limited creep and overtravel and it has a Bushnell Legend 5x-15x mounted Leupold rings.
Sorry for the long read.
I realize that high quality match ammo will be the most uniform and may defy inspection for weight and other variations. This makes me assume that lower quality ammo may be easier to sort by those methods and may help in getting more consistent performance.
As far as the rifle itself goes, the muzzle has been re-crowned, the action and 2" of barrel are Acraglass bedded - the rest floated, the action screws are torqued to 35 inch/lb, I've adjusted the trigger down to the 1.5lb range and limited creep and overtravel and it has a Bushnell Legend 5x-15x mounted Leupold rings.
Sorry for the long read.
You may want to try the rim thickness or weighing the ammo method of sorting your chosen fodder. However,there are variables which you cannot measure such as powder quantity, bullet uniformity, primer consistency(quantity) which can lead to performance variances. This all comes down to quality control in the manufacture. With the better ammo you get better quality control. The brands you have mentioned are not noted for their consistency. There is some excellent information on Benchrest Central about the relevances of measuring and weighing RF ammo. You have to try it and form your own conclusions. But as has been said many times on these forums YMMV.
denydart,
The hyper velocity loads that you are trying aren't famous for accuracy. You may need to back off a bit. For a lower cost .22 accuracy load I've had good luck with Remington Target. Low cost is relative, it's cheap compared to match ammo and looks pretty good compared to the Stingers and such.
When trying different .22 ammo I haven't had much luck trying a few groups with this, and a few groups with that. After switching ammo and/or cleaning it seems to take a lot of shooting to get the barrel to settle down again.
The hyper velocity loads that you are trying aren't famous for accuracy. You may need to back off a bit. For a lower cost .22 accuracy load I've had good luck with Remington Target. Low cost is relative, it's cheap compared to match ammo and looks pretty good compared to the Stingers and such.
When trying different .22 ammo I haven't had much luck trying a few groups with this, and a few groups with that. After switching ammo and/or cleaning it seems to take a lot of shooting to get the barrel to settle down again.
GAIRLOCHIAN,
Looks like we both share the same passion for smallbore prone. Just like you, I spend about 8 months a year shooting 20 yards indoor.
In the past, I did a LOT of testing. I shot groups composed of 4 rounds of perfectly sorted ammo along with a fifth one, with way out specs (for instance 4 rounds with a rim thickness of .040'' and one with .045''). I have NEVER been able to get a statistical evidence that this fifth round opened the group significatively.
From your post, I think that sorting has some kind of positive effect on the confidence you have in your ammo, even if you can't really prove it with numbers...
Paul
Looks like we both share the same passion for smallbore prone. Just like you, I spend about 8 months a year shooting 20 yards indoor.
In the past, I did a LOT of testing. I shot groups composed of 4 rounds of perfectly sorted ammo along with a fifth one, with way out specs (for instance 4 rounds with a rim thickness of .040'' and one with .045''). I have NEVER been able to get a statistical evidence that this fifth round opened the group significatively.
From your post, I think that sorting has some kind of positive effect on the confidence you have in your ammo, even if you can't really prove it with numbers...
Paul
cz452shooter
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Sparwood, BC
I agree, I think the effect, especially for position shooting is more phycological than anything. If you think it helps - don't listen here - keep doing it! Having confidence in your set up and ammo especially is an absolute must, regardless of how good it actually is
Rim sorting, weighing, etc may have a small amount of virtue with cheap, run-of-the-mill ammo that has plenty of variants unintentionally built in. However, if one is using top quality match ammo, then the quest for some way to sort out potential flyers before the fact is a complete waste of time, as others have said. BTW, Lapua Superclub is good ammo, but still a fair ways away from true match quality ammo. You need to find an ammo and lot number that your specific match 22 likes, and then use the time in practice, not rim sorting & weighing rounds of 22 ammo. Like Paul, I have done some comparison [in much the same way] between the extreme variations found in match ammo, and have also failed to see any evidence of flyers. Confidence helps, though. If it makes you feel better, and you have the extra time, fly at it! Regards, Eagleye.
