How to verify PAL in non face to face transaction

ceezed

ceezed

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I apologize if this should be posted in the EE. Please move if necessary.

I know when selling ammo that verification of PAL is required, but how do I do this if it's not in person? If someone sends me a picture of their PAL is that good enough? How do I know that the person I'm shipping it to is really the owner of the PAL?

Thanks in advance.
 
Best advise I have is talk to the person on the phone. If it's off at all walk away. Feedback score is what a lot of this is about although I've read on occasion it can be rigged. If you are really concerned call the RCMP in Miramichi and verify. Most won't send you a picture because it can then be used by others for bad stuff.

What I personally look for is the full name, PAL number, expiry date & then I compare it to whatever I can find out about the person. At times one could do a reverse phone check I guess. I might even google the person's name to see if the dots line up.

What is good about this forum is that there is a feedback score & most of us depend on it. Am sure others can add more to this.

The only problem I had once was a person wanted to buy a firearm from me but said they would pay cash & admitted he had no PAL. That could lead to lots of trouble.

Good luck!!!!!!
 
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Not sure as I have not bought ammo outside of Ontario, but at one time Ontario was the only province that you were required to show a PAL and have your information recorded to but ammo.
 
ceezed said:
I apologize if this should be posted in the EE. Please move if necessary.

I know when selling ammo that verification of PAL is required, but how do I do this if it's not in person? If someone sends me a picture of their PAL is that good enough? How do I know that the person I'm shipping it to is really the owner of the PAL?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

Due diligence... If you're shipping then request both PAL/RPAL and their valid Driver's Licence with the shipping address on it. Clear and quality pictures.
 
ceezed said:
I know when selling ammo that verification of PAL is required, but how do I do this if it's not in person? If someone sends me a picture of their PAL is that good enough? How do I know that the person I'm shipping it to is really the owner of the PAL?
Click to expand...

You can call the Canadian Firearms Program (CFP) at 1-800-731-4000 to confirm the validity of the licence.
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/buying-and-selling-transferring-firearms

You do not need a copy/photo of the PAL, just their name & PAL #...

Cheers
Jay
 
The ROC said:
Due diligence... If you're shipping then request both PAL/RPAL and their valid Driver's Licence with the shipping address on it. Clear and quality pictures.
Click to expand...

Is it safe to provide one's DL and PAL/RPAL in digital format? I actually have a problem with certain retailers asking and photocopying my drivers licence when I am purchasing ammo in person before the lockdown. I was at their store in person! They wanted to see my RPAL, no problem I said. Then they wanted to see my DL to verify my address, next thing they were making photocopies! Is that even legal?
 
Disco Bob said:
Is it safe to provide one's DL and PAL/RPAL in digital format? I actually have a problem with certain retailers asking and photocopying my drivers licence when I am purchasing ammo in person before the lockdown. I was at their store in person! They wanted to see my RPAL, no problem I said. Then they wanted to see my DL to verify my address, next thing they were making photocopies! Is that even legal?
Click to expand...

Due diligence.. at the end of the day if I'm the seller of an item that requires a PAL and if I want varification of validation especially online transactions... My terms or go buy from someone else.

I can sleep at night knowing that I did my best not to sell to some gang banger or some bad person affiliated to some bad group.

It's in the news, no secret. Bad people have turned to online forum groups and classifieds to buy firearms and ammo knowing the proof of PAL is soft.

Lastly, I could call the CFO for varification but why the heck do I what them to know what I'm selling or buying. I'm tired of our Communist Government having to know all of my business.

:popCorn:
 
The ROC said:
Due diligence... If you're shipping then request both PAL/RPAL and their valid Driver's Licence with the shipping address on it. Clear and quality pictures.
Click to expand...

Must be an urban thing? Vast square miles of this country require the land location or civic address of the house on the driver licence, but no mail service to there - mailing address is in town, a small metal box, at a Post Office building. Many urban buyers do not want a box sitting on their front step for someone else to grab, so use Flex Delivery - again, different address than what is on any other personal ID.

To OP - I ask for and get a full name, the 16 digit number on the PAL and the expiry date. Onus is on you, the seller, to show that you did what is reasonable - if you are getting lied to, that is on the buyer, not you. The laws do not require you to "prove beyond shadow of a doubt" the buyer is legit - can not ignore the issue, but you have to show that you did what was reasonable to try to "verify", or satisfy yourself that the deal was good. Review feedback on CGN, phone call, PM or emails with buyer, and so on. Maybe even contact someone who previously left feedback? - I have not done that, nor have I ever had an inquiry - not 100% sure how I would respond to such a request, mostly because I would likely have trouble remembering that particular experience, unless my notes said something. In the scheme of things, the PAL card is not a particularly robust piece of ID - no hologram, no signature - therefore the "authorities" can not have real high hopes that it is actually "bullet proof", even if you see one with that guy's picture on it...
 
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ceezed said:
I apologize if this should be posted in the EE. Please move if necessary.

I know when selling ammo that verification of PAL is required, but how do I do this if it's not in person? If someone sends me a picture of their PAL is that good enough? How do I know that the person I'm shipping it to is really the owner of the PAL?

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

You can't. Legally and practically it is impossible to comply with the firearms act. A person can not in any way shape or form be expected to validate another person when dealing face to face, let alone online.

Either trust that big brother isn't going to screw you, or don't sell the ammo. And you should know that if big brother wants to screw you, it won't matter if you actually validated the person or not.

NEVER NEVER NEVER give out your PAL or other personal information over the internet. And you should never expect anyone else to do so either. Giving out personal information over the internet is how fraud happens. The verification that you are asking for is what opens the door to the very online fraud that gives rise to this feeling that we need to validate each other.
 
Disco Bob said:
Is it safe to provide one's DL and PAL/RPAL in digital format? I actually have a problem with certain retailers asking and photocopying my drivers licence when I am purchasing ammo in person before the lockdown. I was at their store in person! They wanted to see my RPAL, no problem I said. Then they wanted to see my DL to verify my address, next thing they were making photocopies! Is that even legal?
Click to expand...

Stores can ask for whatever information they want. You are under no obligation to provide it and the store is under no obligation to sell anything to you. If you can't come to terms, walk away.

you must be in Ontario where there are provincial regulations that mandate that a store collect your particulars, including your address. Most stores just take your ID copy the info in their book and are done. Some stores feel it necessary to do extra do dilligence and copy the license itself. Its this excessive fear of big brother jumping out of the bushes and yelling gotcha that has contributed to the significant amount of hoops we have to jump through, with many gun owners thinking these hoops are fair and reasonable when applied to everyone else.

In short, yes its legal for them to ask. Its legal for them to take copies of anything you provide. Provincial and Federal legislation mandates that businesses in possession of personal information of customers has to be protected, and they bear liability for disclosure. I suspect most businesses would fail any security audit with regards to keeping of personal information. But then so would the Canadian Firearms Program. But its definitely legal for them to copy information when you have given your consent for them to record it as a condition of sale.

Just shop for ammo outside of Ontario next time.
 
The ROC said:
Due diligence... If you're shipping then request both PAL/RPAL and their valid Driver's Licence with the shipping address on it. Clear and quality pictures.
Click to expand...

Many years ago I would send a full pic of my PAL but when I started seeing how fraudsters started using the copies of other peoples PAL’s, there’s no way I’ll send complete pictures anymore. I certainly wouldn’t send my DL # in the first place. These days I’ll provide my PAL # and they can verify it with the CFC.

Due diligence goes two ways, how is anyone to know you’re not selling their PAL images to gang bangers? You’ll find that fewer and fewer people will be jumping through your hoops. The ones with the most due diligence being the first to say ‘no’.

Calling the CFC to verify a PAL does not wind up with them even asking about what is being sold, if you ever really did your due diligence and called them you’d know that. You only call them and ask if the PAL is valid and that it’s not been reported as missing or used in fraud. For all you know you’ve been selling to gang bangers who are using someone else’s ID, ID that could be flagged if you called in the CFC to verify.
 
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Great info everyone, I'm slightly concerned now of online retailer's holding copies of my RPAL, from online reloading powder order after reading this thread, in the future ill skip retail sales that require me to email a pic of my rpal online.... simply as I don't know wear this info is stored or what eyes it falls upon other then the genuine honest sales clerk...
Thanks for the info again,
 
Well the utmost thang I do as a seller is to wipe me finger prints awf everything.
Iff'in I sneeze, I start awl over agin.

Yer DNA shouldn't bee awn anything.
I yewse a qewtip and the dawgee water bowl tuh moistint stamps if so need be.

Ohh-lee fruck.............................:runaway:
 
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