Hydrostatic shock

powdergun

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On a recent thread some one stated that once a bullet is travelling under 2300 fps it no longer carries hydrostatic shock and kills more from trauma. This is one of the reasons high speed rounds became popular. Could anyone expand on this ?

This sets up some key questions for me and may explain some of my observations over the last few years. I used to hunt with a 7mm mag with 150 gr pills going at a pretty good clip. For the most part kills were very sudden with the animal travelling perhaps a step or two. I then switched to a 308 feeling I was over gunned. I shot it with 150 gr pills obviously not going as fast. Kill were efficient but not nearly as dramatic as with the fast bullets. If anyone has shot more than a couple of deer you know that the bang flop kill is relatively rare. Especially once you get out past 150 yards. The deer will almost always move a bit before it tips.

So the discussion I'd like to initiate is around the issue of bullet speed. With a good deer bullet not moving into the realm of magnum rounds over 30 cal does the hydrostatic shot of 3000 + fps rounds have a significant advantage over bullets travelling 2500 fps or less when shooting deer sized game.
 
Might I ask what round and load you are shooting to get 3500 fps ?

Also, for a younger shooter woud it be better to shoot a .243 where I can load to a pretty decent speed or the .308 where I can't get the speed but can shoot a heavier bullet ?
 
I've shot deer and boar with a .257 Wby and 75gr X at just under 4000fps muzzle velocity (chronographed). It killed game dead, but I didn't notice any magical difference between that load hitting a deer and a 120gr Partition hitting a deer.

For the younger shooter I really like the .250 Savage. It gives good velocity with very little powder. You really should handload for it though.
 
Might I ask what round and load you are shooting to get 3500 fps ?

Also, for a younger shooter woud it be better to shoot a .243 where I can load to a pretty decent speed or the .308 where I can't get the speed but can shoot a heavier bullet ?

7mm STW mostly, since '89 or thereabouts. More recently the .257 Weatherby. Between the two there must be boxcar load of deer wondering what hit 'em.
 
I've shot deer and boar with a .257 Wby and 75gr X at just under 4000fps muzzle velocity (chronographed). It killed game dead, but I didn't notice any magical difference between that load hitting a deer and a 120gr Partition hitting a deer.

.

I would say that what you are seeing has more to to do with bullet construction than velocity. The X bullets have their virtues, but lightning fast kills are seldom among them as far as I've seen. The Partition on the other hand has been killing things fast for a long time.
 
I have used really fast rounds (120gr SP's loaded to roughly 3500fps in a 7mm Mag) and some more moderate rounds on deer. The bang flops vs the run in a circle for 10yds and die results, I would say are inconclusive when it comes to speed. Now, bullet construction on the other hand is a different story.
Of course we are talking lung shots here right?
 
i never look at fps in picking a round for hunting, i have always lookat enegry, if the bullet doesn't have a 1000lbs of enegry on impact i won't use it
 
This topic was well written in a john pondoro taylors book african cartridges. Even way back then he stated from observations that bullets hitting at 2400+ fps produced sudden kills even on big game of african plains. You still have hydroshock values at below 2400 fps they just lack the deadly frequency of the sharper faster waves. It is believed to be the frequency of that wave travelling thru the body that produces the quick kill. My 2506 with 120gr bullets drops black bears just as fast as my 300wm with 180s. I think the 300wm is a better bear gun Bullet construction is still important and speed has some disadvantages. Personaly I believe in big heavy bullets at moderate velocity for big game other than deer. A lightning fast bullet may not always pass right thru giving all its energy to the animal which may also help in a quick death. Bullet placement is key.
 
On a recent thread some one stated that once a bullet is travelling under 2300 fps it no longer carries hydrostatic shock and kills more from trauma. This is one of the reasons high speed rounds became popular. Could anyone expand on this ?


So the discussion I'd like to initiate is around the issue of bullet speed. With a good deer bullet not moving into the realm of magnum rounds over 30 cal does the hydrostatic shot of 3000 + fps rounds have a significant advantage over bullets travelling 2500 fps or less when shooting deer sized game.

What on earth makes anyone believe there is some magical law of physics that makes 3000 fps important?

Killing effects of high velocity rounds are the results of far more complex factors than just velocity. What is "hydrostatic shock"? "Trauma" (whatever you think that is exactly) is always what kills.

Death comes when the brain stops working. That can happen from either direct "trauma" from a bullet that destroys brain tissue, or from lack of oxygen due to disruption of the supply from damage to other organs. Bullet placement is the most important aspect of that process. Bullet construction is the second most important aspect of how effectively it will penetrate (another vital factor) and transfer its energy (energy transfer is another factor). Another factor is velocity.

Velocity is absolutely essential, because without it nothing will happen at all, but it is not the only factor by a LONG shot (good pun, eh?). History has shown that the most reliable and effective dangerous game cartridges do not come close to your magical 3000 fps. There are many reasons why that is true. Deer, however, are small enough that it is possible to fire a cartridge from the shoulder that will have overwhelming effects from velocity that can cause nearly instant death. One must remember that meat destruction will also be a side effect of high velocity, so there comes a point where it is counter productive.

Shoot a gopher with a .22LR. The effect is pretty dramatic. Shoot a gopher with a .22-250 at about 4000 fps and the effect is very decisive. That red mist is the result of velocity, since the two bullets are essentially the same size and weight.

The physics of driving a projectile at faster than sound speeds (and that is what makes the "hydrostatic shock" effect become a factor at about 1200 fps so almost all bullets have that effect) creates a pressure wave (the same wave that creates sonic booms), in what is essentially a water filled target, that can tear apart tissue.

We are now talking about the "temporary cavity" of high velocity wounds. If that temporary cavity is larger than the animal, you get the effect you will see on gophers. On a moose, that effect cannot be obtained with any firearm shot from the shoulder. The animal is just too huge, so you must think about penetration, tissue destruction, and disruption of blood flow to the brain to kill effectively.

In the real world of deer hunting, nothing you can shoot that doesn't have its own "mount", can produce the "gopher effect". I don't want that effect anyway, since I plan to eat my deer. So the goal is to disrupt the blood supply to the brain to produce death as quickly as possible. Velocity levels of the .30-06 "class" of cartridges has proved many times that the effect is possible, but not certain. Higher velocities seem to me to have the effect more often, but bullets must transfer that energy properly (bullet construction), the shot must hit the best parts to produce instant stops (bullet placement), and the bullet must have enough velocity left to have the effect when it arrives (velocity).

The psychological state of the animal also has a profound effect on the consequences of being shot. An adrenaline filled deer is far more difficult to drop than an unsuspecting, quiet animal. Some species are known to be able to ignore the effects of bullets more than others. Sometimes strange things just happen.

I once watched my partner put three .30 cal. 165 gr. Ballistic Tips into the chest of a buck from a .30-06 at 150 yards. The deer didn't move, didn't even flinch, until after the third shot when it tried to walk and then fell over dead. All three were in a 5 inch group broadside through the chest. The effects of any shot on any specific animal cannot be predicted.

But there is nothing "magical" about 3000 fps. Whether the bullet is going 2700 fps, or 3100 fps will not be the most important factor on the effects it produces. Not at all.
 
My explanation of "hydrostatic shock":
  • shoot a woodchuck with a 6mm 75gr V-Max at 3400fps and look at the result (it basically exploded)
  • shoot a 270/7mm 110 TSX at 3500fps in a deer vital and, with proper bullet placement, its vitals basically exploded

There are lots of details to fill in but if you can blow up a woodchuck, then with proper bullet construction, you can blow up a larger animal's vitals and get an instant kill. The keys are bullets construction, sectional density (to reach the vitals) and velocity to get violent expansion (2300fps used to the be threshold for rifle bullets).

There might be more reliable ways to kill large and dangerous animals (such as punching a huge hole in it)

Alex
 
Might I ask what round and load you are shooting to get 3500 fps ?

Also, for a younger shooter woud it be better to shoot a .243 where I can load to a pretty decent speed or the .308 where I can't get the speed but can shoot a heavier bullet ?

If you are considering 243's and 308's , why not split the difference and go with 7mm-08, or 7x57?
 
As far as I'm concerned, its also about energy. With the same bullet I've had bang flops to 50 yards dead runs, and everything in between. IMO, a few inches different from where the bullet hits the animal makes just as much influence to whether its a bang flop or a runner, as does energy, velocity, and bullet construction.

For example, any neck shot will cause enough trauma to the animals body, that it will drop on the spot almost every time. This has less to do with speed and energy, than it does shot placement. My low powered 30-30 lever has had just as many bang flops as my 300 mag, when making neck shots. A 1 oz slug out of a 12 gauge has a tremendous amount of dropping power, yet travels at 12 or 13 hundred feet per second; one third the velocity of average hunting rifles.


But further to the discussion of velocity, many of the modern bullet construction do not operate below its intended speed. What I suggest by that is solid bullets such as Barns have lesser effect and expansion below its optimum velocity range, than does a low grade hunting bullet. While premium bullets have large improvements in ideal conditions, they can have poor results at slower speeds by leaving the body with large amounts of retained energy, such as clean through shots.


IMO, its about energy and shot placement more than velocity. Further to this, if you're a bush hunter, high-end velocity is a bad thing. Bullet deflections from leaves and willows loose a lot of animals, where a 30.06 cannon ball stays its course and drops the animal.
 
The term "hydrostatic shock" is a confusing one. People always mix it up and confuse it with the term "shock" as in what happens when there is blood loss.

A more accurate and easily understood term that I use is "explosive force" This is the outward force created by an expanding or exploding bullet. This is the force that can be seen and herd when you shoot a rock with your deer rifle.

#1 This force can be great enough to dammage or disrupt the spinal cord (with out a direct hit to the spine) and/or cause a pressure wave that travels through the veins and arteries and causes a hemorrhage in the brain. Disrupting the spinal cord or a pressure wave to the brain can sometimes knock an animal down right on the spot.

#2 This force also creates permanent wound channels where material is removed (blown away) greater in diameter than the expanded bullet diameter.



In the most extreme example....

An arrow has no real explosive force and as a result never will NEVER knock an animal out form a lung hit. The wound diameter will also NEVER be larger in size and shape as the broad head.

A rapidly expanding (exploding) bullet does have explosive force and CAN knock an animal out form a lung hit. (The higher the velocity and lighter the bullet construction the higher the explosive force and MORE LIKELY the animal will be knocked out/down from a lung hit.) The wound diameter CAN be larger in size and possibly a different shape than the actual size of the expanded bullet.
 
If hydrostatic shock was the final answer, folks would shoot elephants with 5.6X63s, pushing 45 gr bullets at 5000 fps. But they don't because although velocity plays a role in a bullet's terminal performance, it is only part of the equation. Other parts of the equation are frontal area, momentum, and construction.

Some years ago I conducted a test which compared the terminal performance of 3 bullets of 3 different weights: 270, 300, & 380 grs with velocities of 2900, 2600, and 2300 fps respectively. The light and mid weight bullet produced almost identical wound volumes and any difference in penetration would have to be measured with a caliper. But the heavy weight, which produced a much larger frontal area, penetrated as deep as the lighter bullets, some 32", but its much larger frontal area resulted in approximately 3X the wound volume despite a difference of 600 fps in favor of the lightest bullet. And yet even this test was relevant only as it reflected a bullet's possible performance in soft tissue. A bullet also has to be able to defeat dense bone, and here is where the light jacketed high velocity bomb will let you down.

As a rule of thumb, the faster the bullet impacts, the faster it expands, but the less it penetrates. If two bullets of the same weight and velocity expand to the same frontal area, penetration will be equal in targets of equal density. If two bullets of equal weight impact at the same velocity, but one bullet expands and one does not, the wound volume will be equal if the target is large enough, but shape of the wound will be different, one being long and narrow, the other being trumpet shaped, large at first then narrowing as the velocity bleeds off. If two solids of equal weight and shape hit targets of equal density, the faster one will penetrate deeper.

All any of this suggests though is that the choice of bullet need be appropriate to the density of the animal being hunted. Yet while the elephant hunter's bullet would be effective on an impala, it would not be more effective than say a .270/130, but neither would it be any less effective despite a difference in velocity of 1000 fps and a difference in weight of 770 grs. But while a small bore can fail on a large animal most often due to insufficient penetration, a large bore will never fail on a small animal.

High velocity has one big advantage over its low velocity big bore counterpart, but that advantage has little or nothing to do with terminal performance. A high velocity bullet is easier to put on target at an unknown range due to its flat trajectory. As long as we choose a good bullet for our cartridge be it fast or slow, it'll put meat in the freezer and heads on the wall.
 
Game animals neither read ballistics charts, nor are they influenced in any way by them.
A decent bullet that disrupts vital functions will kill, regardless of velocity or energy figures.
It never fails to amaze me that people still put so much emphasis on velocity/energy, some even stating minumums to guarantee kills on game of this size, or that size.
What a crock!! Bullet placement and disruption of CNS or heart lung functions kills, period!
Those of us who have hunted for 5+ decades, and have probably shot a trainload of game animals, have the experience to recognize a horse turd on the road when we see it.
Regards, Eagleye
 
The effects of any shot on any specific animal cannot be predicted.

Thankyou for saving me so much typing! LOL!

There is no magical, definitive value of bullet performance ( be it velocity,energy, bullet weight, diameter, .....etc) that will guarantee our desired results %100 of the time.

I see people that use rifles way to big for thier own shooting abilities, just because they 'PANIC' if the animal so much as flinches after being shot, let alone, run a distance before dropping for the final count.

Every animal is an individual as well, one animal may drop like a stone when hit by a bullet carrying 900ft./lbs

the next animal (in exactly the same conditions) may run 100 yards or more.


In short;
make your best choice on bullet construction/cartridge to suit the game/situation the best you can, and go hunting.
Plus, have the confidence in a well placed shot. If you place your shots well, the 'average' blood trail will be shorter.

Reguardless of what cartridge is in your chamber.

Have fun you gunnutz! and straight shoot'in!
 
Hydrostatic shock:

A 5000Lb(3.5 million grains) (insert your favorite truck here)
Moving at lets say, 100 ft/sec collides with a deer!!!!

This combination can kill instantly without any penetration.:p
 
Eagle Eye:

I tend to agree with you. To many figures people want to control.
We cant control everything,every time.

Just shoot the critter in the right spot, and let nature/physics do the rest.
It WILL die.
Hopefully sooner rather than later.
 
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