I can't believe I got a Creedmore

Tokay444 said:
What's the generally accepted life expectancy of a fad? 1 year? 3 years? 5 years? 15 year?
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Variable... fads are better identified by what they don't achieve than by time span: I remember as a kid advertisements boasting remarkable feats this toy can do (and invariably it couldn't)... it still goes on today and directed at anyone who will swallow. This is not to say that the "Creedmoor" cartridges are bad, but as with other recent developments they simply don't offer anything that hasn't already been done. I tend to harp on the CMs most because they really are a 250-3000 Newton Savage AI necked up or down: A wildcatter since the invention of the 250-3000 in 1915 has done it probably early as the 1930s. Being ignorant of history does not make one a novel inventor. My personal boycott against even a decent round isn't against the round but the grandiose claims I saw and learned to despise as a kid.

Charles Newton, Paul Mauser, J.M. Browning, E. Remington, the chemists who came up with gunpowder, smokeless powders, igniters, cartridge case inventor etc. are all worthy of the name inventor... not copycat.

kthomas said:
He's probably a muzzle loader :p
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I hope by now you realize what you are implying is silly? And if you had a genuine curiosity: my muzzleloading experience is quite limited... I spend most of my shooting time with centerfire and rimfire. :p
 
New Camper said:
Variable... fads are better identified by what they don't achieve than by time span:

This is not to say that the "Creedmoor" cartridges are bad, but as with other recent developments they simply don't offer anything that hasn't already been done.

My personal boycott against even a decent round isn't against the round but the grandiose claims I saw and learned to despise as a kid.
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I remember being a bit annoyed about how the 6.5 Creedmoor was Marketed initially. It does nothing a .260 Rem can't, if I'm not mistaken the 260 has a bit more room for powder. That said, and regardless of who first created it, the CM is the superior design. I recall referring to it as Fashion of the day, or something like that. What really bugged me was how the Hornady Reloading Manual made the CM look superior, but in reality they are pretty much equal. A bunch of years later and the Cartridge is so well supported it just makes no sense to get anything else in that class.
 
You only start to see any usable increase in case capacity in the .260 if you use a long action, increase freebore from .135” to .199”, and adjust the lead from 3° to 1.5°, but then it isn’t a SAAMI spec .260 anymore. Otherwise the bullet takes away all that extra capacity, and the boat tail/bearing junction is behind the neck/shoulder junction.
 
New Camper said:
Variable... fads are better identified by what they don't achieve than by time span: I remember as a kid advertisements boasting remarkable feats this toy can do (and invariably it couldn't)... it still goes on today and directed at anyone who will swallow. This is not to say that the "Creedmoor" cartridges are bad, but as with other recent developments they simply don't offer anything that hasn't already been done. I tend to harp on the CMs most because they really are a 250-3000 Newton Savage AI necked up or down: A wildcatter since the invention of the 250-3000 in 1915 has done it probably early as the 1930s. Being ignorant of history does not make one a novel inventor. My personal boycott against even a decent round isn't against the round but the grandiose claims I saw and learned to despise as a kid.

Charles Newton, Paul Mauser, J.M. Browning, E. Remington, the chemists who came up with gunpowder, smokeless powders, igniters, cartridge case inventor etc. are all worthy of the name inventor... not copycat.
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This is a bit of a long read, but it explains HOW and more importantly WHY the 6.5 Creedmoor was conceived, and it was not because of marketing first but for the National course.
Cat
https://investmentgradefirearms.com/scopes/history-of-the-6-5-creedmoor/
 
Well, my $0.02...
Had a 260 for 9 years, went thru 2 barrels just doing my thing, competing against myself and plinking
It was a good round, but was a bit of work to get it to shoot - both barrels were picky.

3rd barrel went to a creed - benchmark 8t - for no other reason than it 99% copied the upper case/neck shape of some real accurate cartridges well known to be super easy to load for (which were already in my arsenal - 6mmbr and 6.5x47) - so got some brass, loaded it up with the bullets I had leftover from the 260, and shot the sucker...
Well, it was easy to load for, super accurate, efficient (same specs as my 260 with less powder), and easy to shoot. Whats not to like about that? Found my accuracy load after 9 shots, rechecked next time out with seating depth, and another 12 shots (6 actually, the other 6 were because I couldn't believe the first 6) I was done! Classic 41.5 gr h4350 load.

I don't give a rats-butt about what people think or judge this round - it has proven itself to be a solid benchmark of efficiency and accuracy, and is simply progression. There are a lot of similar rounds out there, rounds using everything we have learned to make them better. Nothing to be scared of.

Actually, what really made me smile is what this cartridge can do (in my 26" barrel gun) when loaded up with R26/n565 and 140's - add 100-150+ fps or more to any factory rounds with same bullet, accurate, and with no pressure signs. The lower node using R26 matches the upper H4350 node in speed and accuracy.
 
I had a 6.5 creed and sold it. Got a 6 BR for short range , and two 6.5/284.
The 6.5 creed is no match to the 6 BR in accuracy and no match to a 6.5/284 velocity and accuracy at long range. It just shoot flatter - faster.

Many move away from 6.5 creed to 6.5 x 47. A more accurate caliber. Guys that compete go to 6 mm family - 6 mm creed - 6 BRA , 6 Dasher , 6 XL and the fairly new 6 GT.
When you remove the commercial hype - there is many caliber that do the job better.

In favour of the 6.5 Creed, it’s sparked many offering of factory rifle in that caliber. The more effective caliber are for many, custom gun with a few exceptions.

But I understand that when someone own one - he believes it is the best until he see first hand other - better caliber in action.
 
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Janeau said:
I had a 6.5 creed and sold it. Got a 6 BR for short range , and two 6.5/284.
The 6.5 creed is no match to the 6 BR in accuracy and no match to a 6.5/284 velocity and accuracy at long range. It just shoot flatter - faster.

Many move away from 6.5 creed to 6.5 x 47. A more accurate caliber. Guys that compete go to 6 mm family - 6 mm creed - 6 BRA , 6 Dasher , 6 XL and the fairly new 6 GT.
When you remove the commercial hype - there is many caliber that do the job better.

In favour of the 6.5 Creed, it’s sparked many offering of factory rifle in that caliber. The more effective caliber are for many, custom gun with a few exceptions.

But I understand that when someone own one - he believes it is the best until he see first hand other - better caliber in action.
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If we unpack this comment a little, we can see a certain amount of bias here.

It's common in the shooting arena for guys to make such blanket statements. 6BR is flatter shooting than a 6.5 Creed? Well if you examine the trajectories at specific distances you might cheery pick a point where that happens to be true with bullet X in one and bullet Y in the other. But in reality, all long range performance is driven more by the bullet itself than the cartridge it is fired from.

If you forget about the branding, different cartridges are simply instances of specific powder capacities and bullets are different weights and BCs resulting from efficiency of design.

If we consider the power to weight ratios, all the cartridges mentioned are simply statements of the power side and not the weight side of the story. They are all just instances of powder capacity.

Guys in PRS are not migrating to the 6BR for flatter trajectory, they are going there to reduce recoil, which out weighs the benefit of flatter trajectory or improved ballistics if it comes at the cost of higher recoil. This is true even among the sixes. They don't even run the heaviest of the sixes and usually prefer something around 105 grains instead of 115s.

At this point if I ask you what is better for long range shooting, 308 or 30-06... just as above... it's only part of the story. If I run some low BC round nose bullet out of the 30-06 and some high BC round out of the 308, and measure performance at extended range, the lower powered 308 will win in all respects.

Heck, if you really want to dig, I'm running a long throat 223 with 90 grain A Tips with a 0.585 G1 BC at 2900 FPS. The ballistic performance of this typically dismissed cartridge is lower recoiling than the 6 BR with almost any bullet and the 223 has a flatter trajectory.

So is the 6mm the center of the universe? I don't think so. A solid choice sure.

So please... look a little deeper before blanketing X as good and Y as bad.
 
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Janeau said:
I had a 6.5 creed and sold it. Got a 6 BR for short range , and two 6.5/284.
The 6.5 creed is no match to the 6 BR in accuracy and no match to a 6.5/284 velocity and accuracy at long range. It just shoot flatter - faster.

Many move away from 6.5 creed to 6.5 x 47. A more accurate caliber. Guys that compete go to 6 mm family - 6 mm creed - 6 BRA , 6 Dasher , 6 XL and the fairly new 6 GT.
When you remove the commercial hype - there is many caliber that do the job better.

In favour of the 6.5 Creed, it’s sparked many offering of factory rifle in that caliber. The more effective caliber are for many, custom gun with a few exceptions.

But I understand that when someone own one - he believes it is the best until he see first hand other - better caliber in action.
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I think there's a lot more nuance to it then that, as Maple57 is hinting at as well.
 
chrismc said:
Well, my $0.02...
Had a 260 for 9 years, went thru 2 barrels just doing my thing, competing against myself and plinking
It was a good round, but was a bit of work to get it to shoot - both barrels were picky.

3rd barrel went to a creed - benchmark 8t - for no other reason than it 99% copied the upper case/neck shape of some real accurate cartridges well known to be super easy to load for (which were already in my arsenal - 6mmbr and 6.5x47) - so got some brass, loaded it up with the bullets I had leftover from the 260, and shot the sucker...
Well, it was easy to load for, super accurate, efficient (same specs as my 260 with less powder), and easy to shoot. Whats not to like about that? Found my accuracy load after 9 shots, rechecked next time out with seating depth, and another 12 shots (6 actually, the other 6 were because I couldn't believe the first 6) I was done! Classic 41.5 gr h4350 load.

I don't give a rats-butt about what people think or judge this round - it has proven itself to be a solid benchmark of efficiency and accuracy, and is simply progression. There are a lot of similar rounds out there, rounds using everything we have learned to make them better. Nothing to be scared of.

Actually, what really made me smile is what this cartridge can do (in my 26" barrel gun) when loaded up with R26/n565 and 140's - add 100-150+ fps or more to any factory rounds with same bullet, accurate, and with no pressure signs. The lower node using R26 matches the upper H4350 node in speed and accuracy.
Click to expand...

What are the numerical differences between 6.5x47l and 6.5creed? Do they shoot the same bullet at the same speed with the same amount of powder? That has been my impression without looking too deeply at the comparison. I've also heard the 47l is easier to find and stay in an accuracy node.
 
adamg said:
What are the numerical differences between 6.5x47l and 6.5creed? Do they shoot the same bullet at the same speed with the same amount of powder? That has been my impression without looking too deeply at the comparison. I've also heard the 47l is easier to find and stay in an accuracy node.
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The 6.5 Creed is a significantly larger case, so it does go faster. In fact, the powder to weight ratio of the 6.5 Creed is pretty much perfect 1/3 powder weight of the 140 ish grain heavy bullets for the caliber. The 6 Creed is on the hot side getting closer to 50 percent.

The 6.5x47L is actually a bit under powdered in the 6.5 form and is actually a better power to weight balance when necked down to 6x47L... but best results with large primer brass, especially this time of year.
 
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The only bonus for the Creed over the x47 is ammo/components (brass), and the x47 is pretty well a reloaders cartridge only.
As for shooting, they have the same crack, the same push/ same recoil, there is nothing discernible that you could tell them apart.
And the 1000yd performance is similar - different bullets, but... - my 130 hybrid x47 is 24.75 MOA to 1000, the 140 hybrid 6.5cm is 25moa at 1000. That is one click diff between the two.
 
chrismc said:
The only bonus for the Creed over the x47 is ammo/components (brass), and the x47 is pretty well a reloaders cartridge only.
As for shooting, they have the same crack, the same push/ same recoil, there is nothing discernible that you could tell them apart.
And the 1000yd performance is similar - different bullets, but... - my 130 hybrid x47 is 24.75 MOA to 1000, the 140 hybrid 6.5cm is 25moa at 1000. That is one click diff between the two.
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The link I posted explains that the Creedmoor was not made for any sort of ballistic advantage but for better compatibility for national course rifles.
But yes, there are a great number of factory hand loads available for it for non hand loaders.
I don't shoot factory ammo, but I think if availability of factory ammo gets more people into the target shooting sports, well that is no reason to hate a cartridge. For some though it seems like the whole factory thing is what angers us.
I know when some new guy tells me he can shoot factory ammo as well as I can my hand loads because he is shooting a Creedmoor, I have to laugh.
Cat
 
adamg said:
What are the numerical differences between 6.5x47l and 6.5creed? Do they shoot the same bullet at the same speed with the same amount of powder? That has been my impression without looking too deeply at the comparison. I've also heard the 47l is easier to find and stay in an accuracy node.
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I have lots of rounds through my 6.5 CM. Have not changed my load yet at all. Well 0.1 grain for different H4350 powder lot. I probably will revisit my seating depth this summer just to make sure I stay in the middle. My rifle was super easy to find a load in it as well.
 
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