I can't believe I got a Creedmore

He’s stated multiple times his dies are off the shelf.
He also laughs a lot at the people that will still argue with him, as if he’s trying to trick them or something.
You should listen to the podcasts, and or watch the videos.
A .284 Shehane isn’t a Saami cartridge, so there aren’t Saami reamers. His 6x47L reamer is the same one he’s used forever and he runs off the shelf 6.5x47L Redding Type S dies with a 6mm bushing.
Would you like to share any data that you’ve collected showing that bullet run out of .005” has an effect on paper?
To me, he lays it all out in black and white so DON’T have to read between the lines.
I’ve been having a great degree of personal success using his prescribed methods, with ammo shooting in the 0s and 1s out to 300 yards with a fair degree of consistency. I throw charges on a Chargemaster, I full length size every firing with a Redding body die and Competition bushing neck die with no expander. I’ve checked runout once and sold the gauge. I salt bath anneal every firing. And I use a .003” under sized mandrel. I don’t uniform primer pockets. I don’t even clean them. I don’t uniform flash holes. I don’t even have the tool. I don’t neck turn. I use a single stage press because it’s what I have. If I had a Dillon 650, you’re damn right I would load on it, as Erik does.

I just finished the podcast, and as you mentioned he just uses regular Redding dies. He mentions that a lot of his critics/detractors say he's using some sort of custom die sets to get the results he's getting, but it's simply not true.

I like Erik's approach to reloading - he wants to keep it as simple as possible, while still getting the results he expects. He's tested a bunch of different methods and factors in reloading, and through that has disproven a lot of myths that get anecdotally passed down as reloading truths. He's just bought a rail gun, to do more extensive reloading tests that remove the shooter from the equation. He shares all of his reloading knowledge on youtube and Patreon, and most importantly he tells you the "why's". He's going to continue to test and demonstrate what does and doesn't work in reloading, and he's going to share the whole journey and the "whys" with those willing to listen. I think there is going to be a lot of interesting things that comes out of it, and like AB, will dispel some of the common myths that continue to be propagated as facts.

Again, I'm not stating that anyone needs to reload a specific way. My process is slightly different then Erik Cortina's, but I think his philosophy is a great one that resonates with me and my reloading style - keeping it simple and only doing the steps that matter. I learned a lot from the podcast, there's a lot of knowledge bombs being dropped. Like you, I also don't neck size, neck turn, weight sort brass, clean primer pockets, uniform primer pockets, uniform flash holes, check for runout, lube necks, etc. I keep it simple.

Applied Ballistics and Erik Cortina are really good resources to separate the anecdotal myths from the facts. Applied Ballistics has a lot of resources at their finger tips, and to my knowledge are the best equipped entity that's actually going through the process of what does and doesn't work. Erik Cortina is one man with less resources, but a hell of a shooter, and he's very passionate and knowledgeable, and eager to share his knowledge with those that will listen. Rather then blindly following any one shooter's methods, it's just as important to know the "why's", and don't be afraid to test them out for yourself.

Using quality components is important as well. Part of the reason why Erik Cortina can keep his process simple is that he starts with quality components - Lapua brass and Berger bullets. I've been bitten in the past from straying from these components, and ended up chasing my tail and wasting a lot of time, money and barrel life on loads that had no hope of shooting great in the first place.

Anyways, I just wanted to share those resources with people. These two sources are separating the wheat from the chaff, and are worth much more then some anecdotal experience from a screen name on the internet. Check it out for yourselves, I guarantee you will learn a lot, and as a result hopefully your reloading process becomes simpler and your results down range become better.
 
Everyone has a right to do things how they want to and nobody needs anyone else's approval to do that.

The point I'm making that you guys seem to be missing is there is more than one thing that is the reason a rifle shoots well and it is just plain ignorant to over simplify that. Having said that, some people are not detail oriented, different people process information differently. Some people just need to avoid details, other need to understand every subtle thing in microscopic detail. I know lots of people in both groups.

I use a 3 decimal place (in grains) scale to weigh powder and every other darn thing. I'm sure someone out there is about to criticize that, but I don't care... I leave nothing to chance. Is it a waste of time? I don't care... I enjoy it.

I weigh my brass and it goes into lots that vary no more than 1/10th of a grain. I'll never change that... why should I? Because Erik says so... not.

Guys can be pleased with how their rifle shoots for the type of shooting they do, but when you start thinking about F Class with a 1/2 MOA V Bull at 1000 yards and consider that the circle is widest at the center... Suddenly you need to start processing how to hold 2 or 3 inches vertically at 1000 yards in order to maximize the width of the V bull. We dwell on little things like how many seconds a round will sit in the chamber to warm up before we fire it.

Once you start doing the math on that, a person of intelligence tries to reduce variability, not find excuses to justify maximizing it.

PRS guys are plate bangers and don't care if they can hold 3 vertical inches at 1000... Not that they don't care for accuracy, obviously we all do, but we do prioritize things differently and work to different levels of acceptability.

Erik plays both F Class and PRS, so it does surprise me to an extent that he promotes a lower bar, but I do believe what he talks about is just one thing that is resolved because of some other thing... We can agree to disagree on that.

Keep in mind Erik is also sponsored by Lapua and if he doesn't weigh his brass, it might have something to do with the ease with which consistent lots of brass is made available to him... If you are not sponsored by Lapua.... things might play out a little differently for you.

Another point is that Erik shoots F Class single string in the USA... not in a squaded 3 man relay like we do here in Canada... there's a big difference in the time between shots... So that's a thing. Its easier single string, a whole lot easier.

I have no problem with Erik, but I don't hold him in higher regard than a dozen guys I've shot with here in Ontario for 20 years. He's only been involved in F Class for about 5 years... He's a newby.... But a well funded newby.

Keep in mind that guys join the National team because they can afford (time and money) to be on the team, not always because they are the best shooter on the range. How many guys can burn $30,000 + a year for that and travel to god knows where, and not get divorced?

I'm not telling anyone how to reload. I'm merely sharing resources that are actively testing to dispel fact from fiction in reloading.

Erik Cortina is a hell of a shooter. He's set world records, he's not just some rich guy that bought himself onto a national F-class team. That said, I'm not suggesting that anyone blindly follows his process either. I don't. But he does share a lot of great knowledge, and people can learn a lot from him if they choose to listen.

I think you are reading into my posts too much, I'm not telling anyone how to do anything, besides listen to some podcasts. You obviously have your own method that you are invested in, with no desire to change how you do things. That's cool, you have a system that works for you, and I respect that. By no means do I expect you to change your process on account of what I'm sharing, and that's not my intent. My whole intent is to share these excellent resources for those that are looking for a process, to understand the "why's" behind what works and what doesn't, to have actual knowledge to learn from, that's been derived from a more scientific process then an anecdotal one. People are free to take what they want out of those podcasts, and do with that information as they please.

There's a lot of myths in reloading, and these two sources are actively working to dispel them. This is much needed in the reloading world, and I think it would behoove reloaders to pay attention to what is being found.
 
Picked up a 6mm CM this week for ####s and giggles, and a 6.5PRC. Think that rounds out the newer fad category...300 PRC might be on the list down the road, but it doesn't appeal to me at the moment.
 
do not know who you are but you are correct

Cortina leaves a lot of info out of his blanket statements and you have clarified some of them

Thanks as you saved me the time to compose something similar

folks needs to re-read and understand your insightful comments




Erik Cortina isn't a bad guy, but there is much left off the table when he makes broad statements and casts them to apply to everyone else.

Erik Cortina says don't chase lands... well he doesn't keep a barrel long enough to need to.

Erik Cortina says 0.005" runout is fine... Fine for him because he seats his bullets out far enough from the neck that the tight freebore in his custom barrel aligns the bullet, so runout for him doesn't matter. Don't think it applies to your short SAAMI spec factory chamber.

Erik Cortina says to always full length resize... Again... custom chamber and more than likely a custom FL resizing die to suit his custom chamber... The reamer for his sizing die was probably ordered along with the barrel chambering reamer. If not, someone more than likely polished the FL die to minimize side wall resize. He has a lathe and probably did it himself.

We've all got to read between the lines and interpret where guys like Erik are coming from. I don't believe Erik is trying to mislead anyone, but what he says does not apply to every hand loader in every cartridge and chamber configuration. It applies mostly to guys with similar custom rigs and similar cartridges and bullet weights.... and don't forget he is not filling in the missing details.

My F Class and my PRS rig is very much like his, custom chambering reamer, custom FL sizing dies, tight freebore... long freebore, throat angle idealized for the specific bullet, barrel length and weight selected to achieve my target velocity... etc. Do I FL resize for F Class... ya.. but not with an over the counter die. That part Erik doesn't talk about.

Its very hard to put out videos on YouTube and speak to an audience that does not have similar knowledge and anticipate what gets lost in translation.
 
once again really good information

I buy or used to buy when shooting short range br 1000 yes one thousand or 10 boxes of 220 Russian brass
weighed them to 2/100 two hundredths of a grain on a fx120i
then sort them into boxes of 50 or 100 for matches

Good brass and match prep goes a long way to achieving success, or at least what you and your equipment is able to do



Everyone has a right to do things how they want to and nobody needs anyone else's approval to do that.

The point I'm making that you guys seem to be missing is there is more than one thing that is the reason a rifle shoots well and it is just plain ignorant to over simplify that. Having said that, some people are not detail oriented, different people process information differently. Some people just need to avoid details, other need to understand every subtle thing in microscopic detail. I know lots of people in both groups.

I use a 3 decimal place (in grains) scale to weigh powder and every other darn thing. I'm sure someone out there is about to criticize that, but I don't care... I leave nothing to chance. Is it a waste of time? I don't care... I enjoy it.

I weigh my brass and it goes into lots that vary no more than 1/10th of a grain. I'll never change that... why should I? Because Erik says so... not.

Guys can be pleased with how their rifle shoots for the type of shooting they do, but when you start thinking about F Class with a 1/2 MOA V Bull at 1000 yards and consider that the circle is widest at the center... Suddenly you need to start processing how to hold 2 or 3 inches vertically at 1000 yards in order to maximize the width of the V bull. We dwell on little things like how many seconds a round will sit in the chamber to warm up before we fire it.

Once you start doing the math on that, a person of intelligence tries to reduce variability, not find excuses to justify maximizing it.

PRS guys are plate bangers and don't care if they can hold 3 vertical inches at 1000... Not that they don't care for accuracy, obviously we all do, but we do prioritize things differently and work to different levels of acceptability.

Erik plays both F Class and PRS, so it does surprise me to an extent that he promotes a lower bar, but I do believe what he talks about is just one thing that is resolved because of some other thing... We can agree to disagree on that.

Keep in mind Erik is also sponsored by Lapua and if he doesn't weigh his brass, it might have something to do with the ease with which consistent lots of brass is made available to him... If you are not sponsored by Lapua.... things might play out a little differently for you.

Another point is that Erik shoots F Class single string in the USA... not in a squaded 3 man relay like we do here in Canada... there's a big difference in the time between shots... So that's a thing. Its easier single string, a whole lot easier.

I have no problem with Erik, but I don't hold him in higher regard than a dozen guys I've shot with here in Ontario for 20 years. He's only been involved in F Class for about 5 years... He's a newby.... But a well funded newby.

Keep in mind that guys join the National team because they can afford (time and money) to be on the team, not always because they are the best shooter on the range. How many guys can burn $30,000 + a year for that and travel to god knows where, and not get divorced?
 
having a hard time with your rifle shooting in the zeros or ones, please elaborate for my old and somewhat feeble mind

wish to give you on opportunity to clarify your most puzzling statements, as though they had over a 1 % chance at being even remotely true


PLEASE PLEASE ELABORATE for me and the masses


then I can comment to show the world the sillyiness of those statements


I only load to the kernel of powder on a a & d fx120i so maybe I have a lot to learn

please help me


signed


romantically yours, somewhat desperate



He’s stated multiple times his dies are off the shelf.
He also laughs a lot at the people that will still argue with him, as if he’s trying to trick them or something.
You should listen to the podcasts, and or watch the videos.
A .284 Shehane isn’t a Saami cartridge, so there aren’t Saami reamers. His 6x47L reamer is the same one he’s used forever and he runs off the shelf 6.5x47L Redding Type S dies with a 6mm bushing.
Would you like to share any data that you’ve collected showing that bullet run out of .005” has an effect on paper?
To me, he lays it all out in black and white so DON’T have to read between the lines.
I’ve been having a great degree of personal success using his prescribed methods, with ammo shooting in the 0s and 1s out to 300 yards with a fair degree of consistency. I throw charges on a Chargemaster, I full length size every firing with a Redding body die and Competition bushing neck die with no expander. I’ve checked runout once and sold the gauge. I salt bath anneal every firing. And I use a .003” under sized mandrel. I don’t uniform primer pockets. I don’t even clean them. I don’t uniform flash holes. I don’t even have the tool. I don’t neck turn. I use a single stage press because it’s what I have. If I had a Dillon 650, you’re damn right I would load on it, as Erik does.
 
What's not to like? Sure, if you already have a rifle that shoots a cartridge with similar performance, you don't have to sell off what you have to join the bandwagon, but it's pretty hard to deny that it is a good cartridge that offers a lot of positives.
 
Cortina has very different reloading practices for F-class than he has for PRS shooting.

Different mission, different methods.

I'm not sure why this thread devolved into a PRS vs F-class reloading styles. I don't think the OP is trying to reload to set world records, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

With the quality of reloading equipment and components available today, it's almost difficult not to reload good loads. There is so much myth and lore that's perpetuated through the reloading world, based on some anecdotal experience that wasn't conducted in any way similar to a scientific method. Correlation does not equal causation, and the world of reloading has become so confusing for someone trying to make the jump as a result.

Reloading can be really easy, and still return really good results. Will your method change if you are trying to chase world records? Possibly, but I don't think those that are just starting out in reloading need to make it complicated, that's not going to be conducive to success.

I think it would behoove those that are getting into reloading to listen to the resources I've listed, because they separate the wheat from the chaff, and as a result the reloading process will be simpler and less confusing. I really wish I had those resources available when I started reloading.
 
It's not for any of us to insist upon what is "Good enough"

It's not constructive that we assume advise posted is for a beginner who intends to remain at a juvenile level. Yes... Reloading is simple, after you've been competing for 40 years.

Keeping this simple is good, but too simple is just ignorance. Yes, some reloading practices provide a minimal advantage, but that does not mean they should be categorically discarded. If you are a top level competitor these small differences can be the key difference.

If I have more that 0.001" runout on loaded competition ammo, something is seriously wrong.

I have my own guys who's opinion I hold in high regard and when Gord Ogg, or the Chou brothers comes on here and tells me that they shoot F Class with 0.005" runout on ammo, then I'll give it some thought.

There's an old saying... Matches are won and lost on the reloading bench.
 
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I only buy a caliber that I can get in most places. .308 Win, 9MMX19MM etc....Crudmore will soon fade away and you will be stuck looking for ammo and casings. This is just my opinion, before you armchair verbal snipers start lining me up in your sights.
 
I only buy a caliber that I can get in most places. .308 Win, 9MMX19MM etc....Crudmore will soon fade away and you will be stuck looking for ammo and casings. This is just my opinion, before you armchair verbal snipers start lining me up in your sights.

6.5 CM factory ammo is just as plentiful as .308 Win these days.
 
It's not for any of us to insist upon what is "Good enough"

It's not constructive that we assume advise posted is for a beginner who intends to remain at a juvenile level. Yes... Reloading is simple, after you've been competing for 40 years.

Keeping this simple is good, but too simple is just ignorance. Yes, some reloading practices provide a minimal advantage, but that does not mean they should be categorically discarded. If you are a top level competitor these small differences can be the key difference.

If I have more that 0.001" runout on loaded competition ammo, something is seriously wrong.

I have my own guys who's opinion I hold in high regard and when Gord Ogg, or the Chou brothers comes on here and tells me that they shoot F Class with 0.005" runout on ammo, then I'll give it some thought.

There's an old saying... Matches are won and lost on the reloading bench.

I'm not insisting anyone does anything, besides listen to some podcasts.

Personally, I think we do beginner reloaders a huge disservice by pretending that they need to do a million reloading steps, when that simply isn't true. I think it's fair to assume that someone who is just starting reloading, is not planning on kicking Bart Sauters ass at a benchrest competition.

Reloading is a big hurdle to initially jump, and I don't think it's fair to make it anymore complicated then it needs to be. But if someone wants to make it more complicated, then that's for them to decide.

Maple57, you are obviously happy and set in your process. That's cool, I'm happy for you, and I have no intentions on changing on how you or anyone else does their reloading. That's your choice to make and live/shoot by.

You are right in that some steps matter, some steps don't. Some steps matter a tiny bit, some by a lot. But I think there's also a lot of myths and lore in reloading, and sometimes we think a step makes a difference, when in actuality it may not. We base a lot of our assumptions on anecdotal experience from others, along with correlations we may see ourselves on the range. What we generally don't do is test in a scientific manner, isolating variables that need to be isolated, while perfectly manipulating others, with sample sizes that have actual statistical irrelevance.

I myself prefer to keep things simple. I don't sort brass or bullets. I don't clean primer pockets, uniform them, or deburr flash holes. I don't measure runout. I don't turn necks. What I do think matters is neck tension, weighing powder accurately and consistently, and using quality components (Lapua brass, Berger bullets).

My ammo still shoots. I've shot ~40 round strings over a chrono with SD's of ~4.5. They shoot tiny holes as well. You can load up really good ammo with minimal steps. I don't expect anyone to emulate me, I'm just providing resources that may help newer reloaders separate the wheat from the chaff.
 
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...
Keeping this simple is good, but too simple is just ignorance. Yes, some reloading practices provide a minimal advantage, but that does not mean they should be categorically discarded. If you are a top level competitor these small differences can be the key difference.
...

It can be helpful for the apprentice reloader to have some idea, an ordered list of things perhaps, starting with the absolute basics so you don't blow your face up, then the things that make a big difference so you know what to refine first, and lastly the things that make that wee difference for national-level competitors. Doesn't make any sense to go chasing after tiny things that you're not going to see making a difference yet at the quality of your ammunition and shooting technique and getting frustrated. Sort out the 10 MOA problems first, then the 3 MOA things, then it makes sense to get under 1 MOA, then later the refinements that'll put them all in the same hole.
 
I Still don't understand the hype for 6.5 Creedmore.
No one has anything remotely close to hype for anything called a "Creedmore".

Cortina has very different reloading practices for F-class than he has for PRS shooting.
And he still uses a Dillon and a he still full length sizes. Just like the rest of the hall of fame benchresters and F-classers.

I only buy a caliber that I can get in most places. .308 Win, 9MMX19MM etc....Crudmore will soon fade away and you will be stuck looking for ammo and casings. This is just my opinion, before you armchair verbal snipers start lining me up in your sights.
It's only been 14 years, and only every factory rifle comes chambered in it. I'm sure the lull will be along any minute now.
 
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I'm not insisting anyone does anything, besides listen to some podcasts.

Personally, I think we do beginner reloaders a huge disservice by pretending that they need to do a million reloading steps, when that simply isn't true. I think it's fair to assume that someone who is just starting reloading, is not planning on kicking Bart Sauters ass at a benchrest competition.

Reloading is a big hurdle to initially jump, and I don't think it's fair to make it anymore complicated then it needs to be. But if someone wants to make it more complicated, then that's for them to decide.

Maple57, you are obviously happy and set in your process. That's cool, I'm happy for you, and I have no intentions on changing on how you or anyone else does their reloading. That's your choice to make and live/shoot by.

You are right in that some steps matter, some steps don't. Some steps matter a tiny bit, some by a lot. But I think there's also a lot of myths and lore in reloading, and sometimes we think a step makes a difference, when in actuality it may not. We base a lot of our assumptions on anecdotal experience from others, along with correlations we may see ourselves on the range. What we generally don't do is test in a scientific manner, isolating variables that need to be isolated, while perfectly manipulating others, with sample sizes that have actual statistical irrelevance.

I myself prefer to keep things simple. I don't sort brass or bullets. I don't clean primer pockets, uniform them, or deburr flash holes. I don't measure runout. I don't turn necks. What I do think matters is neck tension, weighing powder accurately and consistently, and using quality components (Lapua brass, Berger bullets).

My ammo still shoots. I've shot ~40 round strings over a chrono with SD's of ~4.5. They shoot tiny holes as well. I don't expect anyone to emulate me, I'm just providing resources that may help newer reloaders separate the wheat from the chaff.

Well that's a sensible response KT.

It's hard for any of us to anticipate what is good enough for anyone else and I agree that it's a good practice not to intimidate guys who are not trying to maximize every last bit.

Maybe we need a mediocre precision section and a super dooper precision section on CGN and SH for that matter.

But to your point, I don't talk out my butt... (Contrary to some..) I actually do an awful lot of testing, variable reduction... root cause analysis, corrective action procedures, 5 whys, 4Ms etc... It's one of my core competences professionally and I always drag that methodology to the range.

If there is a takeaway its simply this... Manage what you can to the level you are comfortable with. If you can reduce a variable and in your opinion you find comfort in the fact that it is controlled, then do it and move to the next thing.

The Continuous Improvement Initiative and the Pareto Principle is based upon a philosophy where you address the biggest problems first, then to the next biggest problem and so on... Eventually all you have left is small problems... then go after them... biggest first... Reloading is much like that. The closer you look, the more you will find, but in ever decreasing value.
 
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