I can't believe I got a Creedmore

5.45 said:
Well, just don't urinate while standing facing the wind ))

My 16.5" 6.5 783 seems to like the 120 grain ELD-M / 38.8 grain Varget combo (2655 fps average)

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Very nice...

Jerry
 
What some seem to forget is case capacity allows for alot of options... one of which is throttling down and still getting a ton of performance.

Think V8 vs an overspun 4 banger...

What I love about the 22 CM is the ability to use loads on the starting side of the load profile.... and get performance that rivals some very big toys. And as a byproduct of throttling back, excellent bore life...high teens to low 2's is all I would ever ask from a high performance combo.

with easy and reliable tuning. Sometimes you don't need to crater the primers to have fun....

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
What some seem to forget is case capacity allows for alot of options... one of which is throttling down and still getting a ton of performance.

Think V8 vs an overspun 4 banger...

What I love about the 22 CM is the ability to use loads on the starting side of the load profile.... and get performance that rivals some very big toys. And as a byproduct of throttling back, excellent bore life...high teens to low 2's is all I would ever ask from a high performance combo.

with easy and reliable tuning. Sometimes you don't need to crater the primers to have fun....

Jerry
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The flip side is that most consistent velocity is almost always at or near 100 percent case capacity.

Sure you can dial down the powder charge and run slower cleaner burning powder, but then risk velocity spreads opening up. If the powder charge is loose it lays differently for each shot and that affects speed.

The speed variation might not be an issue for a < 100 yard deer hunter but counter productive in competition.

Dropping back from a 140 grain 6.5 to an 80-90 grain 223 creates problems where the smaller hole demands slower burning powder... slower means dirty and more barrel fowling. This is the exact opposite of the belle of the ball 6BR with a small powder capacity running fast powder burning clean and 100 percent case capacity.

Jerry, if you are advocating a 22 Creed, I'd sure like to see some chronograph results showing low velocity spreads and what load recipes provides them.
 
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Keithjohn said:
I bought a HB laminate in 6.5 creed on here , just because it was cheap and I was bored , I have buddy's dies here and reloading supplys also .
Tried the same load as buddy 143 hornady with h4350 and it shoots as small as his ctr and any I have . Saying that , I have several that shoot just as well to my limits (500 ish ) 308 with heavier Bullets , 243 , 6mm and 25-06 with faster Bullets 7mm rem mag with the 300win mag for more than paper at longer ranges ( at one time I thought I might shoot game way out there )

I did go out to 800 yds with the mags and the 6.5 but found the wind changes way to much for my skills to try to shoot at critters with confidence

So -- one of many good shooters with no real advantage to me -- I do like the low recoil for shooting more rounds when I feel rich and want to play though . Way cheaper to reload for 500yrd plus rifles , (for me that's just the mags and 6.5 creed )

The rem 783 needed the bbl Chanel relieved and the mag catch needed a bend ( mag was hard to release)
It doesn't feed smooth ( need to pay attention working the action fast or it jams kind of ) backing off and double pump gets it to feed
I think the mags could be better designed.
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bolt smooths out with use, the machine marks on the feed ramps need some attention for better feed. we didn't pay remington for pretty machining, just a superior rifle in it's price catagory.
 
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Set up works and works well.... Hammering at 700m on 8" gongs... works to 1450yds which is the furthest I have shot to date.

Best way to know is to try/test. You can debate and argue till the cows come home... and no matter what data is presented, if you want to disagree, you will just ask for more data or find some fault with the presentation.

Me, I like real world results. Holes in paper don't lie and positive results don't need alot of explaining to understand. If you disagree, get some rifles built and prove the concepts wrong.... in real world shooting

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Teammate using a rifle I put together using a Rem 783/McGowen match barrel. We are now into barrel #6 using the same/similar set up. I figure that is a decent sample size to know if a set up is performing.

Jerry
 

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Jerry, I know you are far too evasive to get pinned down by facts that are contrary to your point... but readers should know that velocity spreads tell the tale, and 300 yards is too close for it to matter much.

A poor 50 FPS velocity spread is only about 0.4 inches at 300 yards, but about 5.4 inches of vertical at 800. For a plate banger that's probably okay, but you know as well as I do that's a fail in F Class.

So its all relative to relative expectations. The velocity variations may be acceptable to some, and short barrel life are less of a cost factor for a guy like yourself who gets barrels at wholesale prices.

My point is that side by side it is very unlikely that a 22 Creed will have velocity spreads as good as typical 6.5 Creed for reasons I explained above. The difference will be harder to spot on paper at close range like 300 yards... but will be in increasing amounts farther out.

Hey for PRS its probably perfectly acceptable if guys are aware of the downsides before going in.

Sure your velocities are high, but with that comes recoil when most PRS guys are migrating toward recoil reduction.
 
Maple57 said:
Jerry, I know you are far too evasive to get pinned down by facts that are contrary to your point... but readers should know that velocity spreads tell the tale, and 300 yards is too close for it to matter much.

A poor 50 FPS velocity spread is only about 0.4 inches at 300 yards, but about 5.4 inches of vertical at 800. For a plate banger that's probably okay, but you know as well as I do that's a fail in F Class.

So its all relative to relative expectations. The velocity variations may be acceptable to some, and short barrel life are less of a cost factor for a guy like yourself who gets barrels at wholesale prices.

My point is that side by side it is very unlikely that a 22 Creed will have velocity spreads as good as typical 6.5 Creed for reasons I explained above. The difference will be harder to spot on paper at close range like 300 yards... but will be in increasing amounts farther out.
Sure your velocities are high, but with that comes recoil when most PRS guys are migrating toward recoil reduction.
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You think the 22CM has more recoil then the 6.5CM?
Why not ask what his ES rather then just assuming it's 50fps?
And I call BS on needing a full or compressed load for decent ES. I've got loads from 222Rem up to 7mm Mag that shoot single digit ES, overbore stuff like 257Wby with single digit ES, 308 with single digit ES, low pressure 6.5x55 with slow power and single digit ES, none are full cases, 90% for the most part.
The only cartridge I have yet to find a good single digit ES in is my 6.5CM....it's getting close, but not quite there yet.
 
No I'm not saying the 22 creed has more recoil than a 6.5 creed. I'm saying it has more recoil as a result of the large powder capacity than a more moderate 22... take your pick.

I know Jerry avoids specifics. If he wanted to post speeds he would have by now. He would rather base his load development on groups size rather than chronograph... he has stated that many times.

I pulled 50 FPS out of my guestimate bag simply as an example for readers to understand the vertical offset value of speed variation at various distances. Jerry's 300 yard group posted above could be achieved with worse that 50 FPS ES... that's the reader take away.

You can divide those verticals in half if the velocity spread is actually 25 FPS... Or by 10 if ES is 5... if Jerry or someone else provides specifics from more than a lucky 3 or 4 shot group preferably groups from different days different temps.

There is a reason why certain cartridge size and bullet combinations are record setting and others are not... if you cant figure out the difference that's on you.

If youre pleased with your 257, good for you... run with it. I dont care. Just never saw one on an F Class track... maybe you should bring that tack driver there some time and spank everyone. Can't wait.

As for the rest of your comment, I dont have the energy to pick nickels with you any further.
 
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Funny how my success in F class at a very high level wouldn't have introduced me to proper load tuning.

:)

As I said, there is little point in discussing when some will simply dismiss and make up whatever narrative they want. I will just let the targets speak from themself.

YMMV

Jerry
 
Genuine question: Why is everyone so hung up on ES? ES is strongly dependent on sample size - the more you shoot, the higher the ES.
Statistically speaking, standard deviation or variance would be much more informative, and what matters in the end is the ability of the gun/load combo to deliver the projectile to a certain area with a certain probability. I.e. if you have 1 outlier in an otherwise good 100-round series, the ES may be bad, but low SD will still tell how the load performs.
 
A better question... what is the built in error of ANY chronograph?

And is that error larger then the single digits many obsess on?

AFAIK, there is no chronograph that is accurate to UNDER +/- 1 FPS....

I would assume those who love crunching numbers would understand that .... but maybe not?

Jerry
 
Maple57 said:
No I'm not saying the 22 creed has more recoil than a 6.5 creed. I'm saying it has more recoil as a result of the large powder capacity than a more moderate 22... take your pick.

I know Jerry avoids specifics. If he wanted to post speeds he would have by now. He would rather base his load development on groups size rather than chronograph... he has stated that many times.

I pulled 50 FPS out of my guestimate bag simply as an example for readers to understand the vertical offset value of speed variation at various distances. Jerry's 300 yard group posted above could be achieved with worse that 50 FPS ES... that's the reader take away.

You can divide those verticals in half if the velocity spread is actually 25 FPS... Or by 10 if ES is 5... if Jerry or someone else provides specifics from more than a lucky 3 or 4 shot group preferably groups from different days different temps.

There is a reason why certain cartridge size and bullet combinations are record setting and others are not... if you cant figure out the difference that's on you.

If youre pleased with your 257, good for you... run with it. I dont care. Just never saw one on an F Class track... maybe you should bring that tack driver there some time and spank everyone. Can't wait.

As for the rest of your comment, I dont have the energy to pick nickels with you any further.
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No 22 cal centerfire has enough recoil in a 14lb rifle to for anyone to say yah or nay difference, and since you were basically saying "why choose the 22CM when it has more recoil" makes no sense...just pointing that out.
The other point I was making was single digit ES is not dependent on case design or caliber like you seem to think, it's easily achieved in every bore size I've loaded more or less, straight wall cartridges are not quite as friendly.
The 6mm's and 22cal's still seem to dominate long range shooting, so you seem to have drank the 6.5CM koolaid so to speak as far as being the ideal cartridge for powder/weight/accuracy.
But you are a serious "target shooter" that doesn't go through barrels...that screams like more nonsense.
 
5.45 said:
Genuine question: Why is everyone so hung up on ES? ES is strongly dependent on sample size - the more you shoot, the higher the ES.
Statistically speaking, standard deviation or variance would be much more informative, and what matters in the end is the ability of the gun/load combo to deliver the projectile to a certain area with a certain probability. I.e. if you have 1 outlier in an otherwise good 100-round series, the ES may be bad, but low SD will still tell how the load performs.
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I focus on single digit ES, across large sample sizes. That way I don’t even need to look at SD.
 
I found it interesting, that in the Eric Cortina video where he shoots a tiny group at 1000, he reads off his ES and is surprised at how large it was for his string......................
 
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