i can't decide.... CDX30 , AI AT, PGW, TRG.... in 308 for precsiison rifle matches

[Lee Enfield]

AIAT = quick calibre changes. You can't go wrong with any of them, I was in a similar position but worse off because I needed a lefty. Had I been able to get a coyote in lefty, I'd have gone with one. If I had waited for a lefthanded AI I probably would have been much happier, than I am now with a left handed DT.

the AICS magazines are really the beesknees, for that reason alone I'd stick with AI.

The AI AT uses AW magazines, not AICS mags.

The AW magazine is double column, double feed, which doesn't work reliably for double lug bolts, so the AI Chassis System double column single feed mags were built to ensure reliable feeding with remington actions.

 

[Trevor60]

i reload. have a ton of 155gr scenars still. so i would like to use them up.
so 1 in 10 will be to fast. i think...
will be shooting out to 800m.


20" or 24"

way to many options.....

For Production guns i would choose Cadex or PGW... PGW or Cadex both are top quality rifles made by Canadian companies.
For Custom for me there is only one smith and they are the Chou brothers. World class shooters building world class guns. There machine work is 2nd to none.

As for barrel length this question comes up allot so lets look at the numbers. I find for KNOWN distance (KD) shooting build a rifle that is more balanced and better handling. the discussion between 24" and 20" is small. 120fps is optimistic we will use it for demonstration purposes. Here is a link to a test where they cut the barrel from 28 to 16.5
http://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/308-winchester-7-62x51mm-nato-barrel-length-versus-velocity-28-to-16-5/

In practical numbers here is the difference assuming a 25fps extreme spread

24" barrel

155 Scenar @2700fps = 207.9 inches drop @ 800yards
155 Scenar @2675fps = 212.7 inches drop @ 800yards

20"

155 Scenar @2580fps = 232.2 inches drop @ 800 yards
155 Scenar @2555fps = 237.8 inches drop @ 800yards

24" barrel = 4.8 inch elevation spread over 25 fps ES
20" barrel = 5.6 inch elevation spread over 25 fps ES

As you can see we are talking less than 1" difference between the two barrel lengths. The spread isn't enough to worry about so u would need to pick another reason to go with a longer barrel

for UKD UnKnown Distances; shooting faster and flatter is better but you would have to decide if a 1" difference between 24" and 20" is enough to worry about.

barrel twist... a 10 twist is a good option as the faster twist will offset the shorter barrels when shooting in our 4 season Canadian weather. Lapua Scenars are solid bullets. If you decide to change to a heavier bullet the 10 twist will be the right choice and will stabilize 185's.

all the best
Trevor

P.S.

I will tell you this once my 26" barrel burns up my next barrel for a 308 win on a Remington action will be 19"

 

[doots]

Where are you located OP? I am going out soon. You can get behind my AI or TRG if close.

thanks for the offer!

i am in ontario right now. bit of a drive

 

[Shibby!]

I'm somewhat confused as to why you are talking SD when discussing ability of the round to be effective at long range?

Slowing the velocity will reduce it's ability to buck wind, etc. Reducing a round 100FPS+ has it's down sides, which in my opinion, are fairly major.

Ie: Using my 24" AIAT. Wind drift with 8MPH cross wind at 1000 yards. 178gr.

2740 FPS: 61.5 inch
2640 FPS: 65.5 inch

While this might not seem like a lot, shooting a 12" target at this distance it does come into play. Not to mention the 6mm and 6.5 will dominate this comparison. The .308win round is great, but it needs all the help it can get when it competes in these matches.

I guess the OP will need to assess his shooting requirements and decide from there. I personally enjoy shooting long range, bench, and PRS. It was an easy decision for me.

 

[doots]

For Production guns i would choose Cadex or PGW... PGW or Cadex both are top quality rifles made by Canadian companies.
For Custom for me there is only one smith and they are the Chou brothers. World class shooters building world class guns. There machine work is 2nd to none.

As for barrel length this question comes up allot so lets look at the numbers. I find for KNOWN distance (KD) shooting build a rifle that is more balanced and better handling. the discussion between 24" and 20" is small. 120fps is optimistic we will use it for demonstration purposes. Here is a link to a test where they cut the barrel from 28 to 16.5
http://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/308-winchester-7-62x51mm-nato-barrel-length-versus-velocity-28-to-16-5/

In practical numbers here is the difference assuming a 25fps extreme spread

24" barrel

155 Scenar @2700fps = 207.9 inches drop @ 800yards
155 Scenar @2675fps = 212.7 inches drop @ 800yards

20"

155 Scenar @2580fps = 232.2 inches drop @ 800 yards
155 Scenar @2555fps = 237.8 inches drop @ 800yards

24" barrel = 4.8 inch elevation spread over 25 fps ES
20" barrel = 5.6 inch elevation spread over 25 fps ES

As you can see we are talking less than 1" difference between the two barrel lengths. The spread isn't enough to worry about so u would need to pick another reason to go with a longer barrel

for UKD UnKnown Distances; shooting faster and flatter is better but you would have to decide if a 1" difference between 24" and 20" is enough to worry about.

barrel twist... a 10 twist is a good option as the faster twist will offset the shorter barrels when shooting in our 4 season Canadian weather. Lapua Scenars are solid bullets. If you decide to change to a heavier bullet the 10 twist will be the right choice and will stabilize 185's.

all the best
Trevor

P.S.

I will tell you this once my 26" barrel burns up my next barrel for a 308 win on a Remington action will be 19"

thanks for the input.

i know i had read that article somewhere down the line...

i do love supporting the canadian business!
i just really liked the ai quickchange barrel idea.

aslo the ability to remove and re time the muzzle break quickly. some ranges dont allow the brakes.

 

[doots]

I'm somewhat confused as to why you are talking SD when discussing ability of the round to be effective at long range?

Slowing the velocity will reduce it's ability to buck wind, etc. Reducing a round 100FPS+ has it's down sides, which in my opinion, are fairly major.

Ie: Using my 24" AIAT. Wind drift with 8MPH cross wind at 1000 yards. 178gr.

2740 FPS: 61.5 inch
2640 FPS: 65.5 inch

While this might not seem like a lot, shooting a 12" target at this distance it does come into play. Not to mention the 6mm and 6.5 will dominate this comparison. The .308win round is great, but it needs all the help it can get when it competes in these matches.

i would love to go 6.5 creedmore. but barrel life and the fact i have stocked up on .308 supplies. i also feel that i am just starting to get really good at tunning 308.

 

[doots]

All the rifles you are interested in are wonderfully made and solidly accurate BUT they may not fit you.

I don't own an AI simply because the stock doesn't work for me... I have tried to shoot a few and they just don't fit me.

Tried a Coyote with the folding stock... AC.. CU.. RATE!!!! But again, the stock layout was not my thing and I had problems with follow through. If I had a chance to reconfigure the entire layout, maybe it wouldn't have felt so uncomfortable but it was. I have no problems with the McMillan A5 versions.

The one I felt most comfy behind was the TRG

This has nothing to do with how well any of these rifles will work for you.... it has to fit you first before you can do good work with it.

Get behind as many of these as you can... pick the one that is the most natural to your body and shooting style. Remember that with PRS type events, you are going to be moving and in all manner of positions. Weight, balance and ergonomics are really important to success.

Jerry

a wise man as always!!
i have been behind a timberwolf and didnt have any issues. but i am pretty good at getting comfy behind any rifle! i do love the a-5 stocks as well!

 

[Shibby!]

I really enjoy it as well. I don't have easy access to over 1100yards so the .308 is a great cartridge to challenge yourself and learn.

I always instruct new shooters of this fact. Easy is not always good. Lots to learn at shorter ranges with a very common and easy to load for cartridge with great barrel life.

All the rifles you are looking at are very good.

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

You are lucky right now. Pretty sure there is an AI AX, TRG 22 (and 42 in 300WM), and a Cadex on the EE.

I will most likely keep my TRG for awhile but I wouldn't buy it again. I personally think the TRG has been surpassed by newer offerings. Maybe I could put it in a Cadex chassis to update it.

I also have a custom (built by the Chou Bro's) and it is great. I will probably stick to high end factory offerings going forward.

Edited: There is a PGW there too.

 

[APS]

All the rifles you are interested in are wonderfully made and solidly accurate BUT they may not fit you.

I don't own an AI simply because the stock doesn't work for me... I have tried to shoot a few and they just don't fit me.

Tried a Coyote with the folding stock... AC.. CU.. RATE!!!! But again, the stock layout was not my thing and I had problems with follow through. If I had a chance to reconfigure the entire layout, maybe it wouldn't have felt so uncomfortable but it was. I have no problems with the McMillan A5 versions.

The one I felt most comfy behind was the TRG

This has nothing to do with how well any of these rifles will work for you.... it has to fit you first before you can do good work with it.

Get behind as many of these as you can... pick the one that is the most natural to your body and shooting style. Remember that with PRS type events, you are going to be moving and in all manner of positions. Weight, balance and ergonomics are really important to success.

Jerry

I would say Jerry is spot on. Pick a rifle that fits YOU. To add I have been hosting and shooting the local Alberta PRS matches and am running a production rifle. I find that weight is a big deal as you may be forced to shoot unsupported at distance. Make sure the gun isn't too heavy and the stocks ergonomics fit well in multiple positions and slung up if you shoot using a sling. I would also consider a 6.5 x47 or 6x47 or similar. You need to be able to spot your own shots and make adjustments on the fly. The recoil from my .308 makes that hard to impossible. The light recoil of these calibers make watching your own shots more manageable.
My 2 cents
APS

 

[Familygunnutz]

Where are you located OP? I am going out soon. You can get behind my AI or TRG if close.

You got a AI finally congrats!
To the OP, AI or PGWTI, nothing else compares, custom is nice and might fit you better so it's your call.
personally I like rifles that are built like tank parts, that's why I like AI & PGW.
I have a Desert tech coming too with new 10rd mag, I'll see what's all the hype about...soon

 

[wchen50]

have a TRG 22 & 42 - so far very happy - stock is a little less than robust

new to this forum
great info here!

 

[Trevor60]

I'm somewhat confused as to why you are talking SD when discussing ability of the round to be effective at long range?

Slowing the velocity will reduce it's ability to buck wind, etc. Reducing a round 100FPS+ has it's down sides, which in my opinion, are fairly major.

Ie: Using my 24" AIAT. Wind drift with 8MPH cross wind at 1000 yards. 178gr.

2740 FPS: 61.5 inch
2640 FPS: 65.5 inch

While this might not seem like a lot, shooting a 12" target at this distance it does come into play. Not to mention the 6mm and 6.5 will dominate this comparison. The .308win round is great, but it needs all the help it can get when it competes in these matches.

I guess the OP will need to assess his shooting requirements and decide from there. I personally enjoy shooting long range, bench, and PRS. It was an easy decision for me.

you are correct right numbers wrong analysis. i will correct my report when i have more time... please note this will change the outlook.

Trevor

 

[10Xrng]

guys that take the F-class/ Palma principles of the 308 loads to Tactical class PRS have an advantage - otherwise there is no reason to use a 308 in PRS if you are looking to be competetive
its a great round and choice to learn with - but it needs pressure and speed to compete

 

[Mystic Precision]

in PRS, there is a growing interest in having a "tactical" class. Some matches segregate 308/223 from everything else.

One style of team match in WA state actually puts a cap on the load and velocity used in the 308.. essentially, what would be issued ammo. This would certainly drop costs and complexity for those who want to play but not as interested in the tech and costs.

Personally, I would love to take part in the 308/223 class... kinda got a bunch of gear already.

But I am also building some 6.5 CM's so can take part in either style of match. So check your local rules and see what is on the horizon for PRS in the US. The 308 class would sure open up the possible audience to come play.

Jerry

 

[Shibby!]

in PRS, there is a growing interest in having a "tactical" class. Some matches segregate 308/223 from everything else.

One style of team match in WA state actually puts a cap on the load and velocity used in the 308.. essentially, what would be issued ammo. This would certainly drop costs and complexity for those who want to play but not as interested in the tech and costs.

Personally, I would love to take part in the 308/223 class... kinda got a bunch of gear already.

But I am also building some 6.5 CM's so can take part in either style of match. So check your local rules and see what is on the horizon for PRS in the US. The 308 class would sure open up the possible audience to come play.

Jerry

The .308 audience is already open to come play....

If people don't compete simply because they are at a slightly lesser chance to win, then that's like having kids go through school without grades...

Oh wait...

I competed with both a .308 and a .223 with all the other calibers. .223 was an AR-15 too. I finished both events middle of the pack. Never practised PRS style shooting other than competing for a few years in 3G and enjoying long range shooting as a hobbyist.

 

[rugbydave]

The .308 audience is already open to come play....

If people don't compete simply because they are at a slightly lesser chance to win, then that's like having kids go through school without grades...

Oh wait...

I competed with both a .308 and a .223 with all the other calibers. .223 was an AR-15 too. I finished both events middle of the pack. Never practised PRS style shooting other than competing for a few years in 3G and enjoying long range shooting as a hobbyist.

I just started competing this summer in PRS-type events down in Washington State (NWPRL). I shoot a 20" barrelled factory Rem 700. I finished slightly above middle of the pack in all 3 events I did and qualified for the finale. I've shot as far as 1274 yards in a match. I've beat plenty of guys running much better/fancier/ballistically superior rigs than me. That being said I'm putting together a rig in 6.5 CM because why wouldn't you want the round that is superior for the type of shooting you are doing/want to do? The flatter shooting 6.5s and 6s are just plain better for PRS style shooting. They buck the wind better and they shoot flatter. Guys say "elevation doesn't matter". On a known distance range, sure. When you're ranging targets that the MD has set up specifically to make them challenging to range, it sure as #### does! The last match I was at someone screwed up and our squad got an incorrect range for one of the targets through some kind of miscommunication. Literally 100 yards off. The guy with the 6XC still got 1 or 2 hits on it.

The OP stated he was looking for a rifle to compete with in precision rifle matches. If that's the use you are going for and you have the cash to spend on a really nice rig, it makes zero sense to get a .308. He's not trying to get into it on a budget, he's only looking at top-tier rifles. If you have a .308 already, don't let that stop you from competing but if you're getting a rifle specifically to compete, get something more appropriate.

The barrel life argument is silly as the ammo cost to shoot out your barrel (even a 6.5 CM) dwarfs the cost of the barrel. I'll be at over 2k rounds through my rig since June. You'd be changing your 6.5 CM barrel once a year if you compete a lot for sure (changing it at 3k rounds vs say 5k for a .308). If you're really worried about barrel life, set up your rifle to be a switch barrel rig with a match barrel and a .223 trainer barrel or get a separate trainer rifle. The best tool for the job.

 

[Motodad]

I was in the same boat and decided on the PGW Coyote in a 6.5 creedmoor. Will be here in a couple days and I'll let you know how it shoots. Also im expecting my SB this week too so I'm pretty excited, never had one before.

 

[J996]

I was in the same boat and decided on the PGW Coyote in a 6.5 creedmoor. Will be here in a couple days and I'll let you know how it shoots. Also im expecting my SB this week too so I'm pretty excited, never had one before.

You should be set for many years to come with that setup. Congrats on the fine hardware.

 

[Motodad]

Thanks so much. New to bench shooting so have a big learning curve ahead. Been reading as many posts as I can trying to soak up the knowledge on here.