ID of an older Beretta SxS
- Thread starter Killer Kanuck
- Start date
I just posted a few posts up from here...In my case, I think the model number is stamped in the wood in the forearm. My confusion comes in the fact that the Silver Hawk is Model 410, mine is model 408. Perhaps the below will help you, I found this info on another forum:
Apparently what you have is the Silver Hawk Magnum, as imported by J.L. Galef & Son during the 1950's and early 60's.
First, let's talk about model designations in general. During that time period, Beretta did not make any model they called "Silver Hawk". They used numbers and sometimes words in Italian to desgnate their models. When Galef began importing Berettas into the US in 1952, they applied model designations that sounded more "American", and apparently those names were copyrighted by Galef, not by Beretta. The name "Silver Hawk" was a Galef name for the guns that Beretta called 410 or 410E. At some time during the 1960's, following Bennett Galef's death in a plane crash in 1959, Beretta gave the importation rights to Garcia (Beretta USA was created after Garcia went bankrupt). I don't know exactly when the Galef company lost the Beretta rights, but it was after 1961 and before 1968 (I think it was around 1966-67). The Galef company tried to stay in business by selling guns made for them by other manufacturers and using the same names they had previously used on the Berettas. During the period 1968-72, they sold a "Silver Hawk" SxS made by Angelo Zoli. Many years later, Beretta USA obtained rights to the name "Silver Hawk" and began putting it on some of their 470 series guns.
When R. L. Wilson wrote his book "The World of Beretta" (copyright 2000), he apparently did not do any original research, he just rearranged and copied data that was fed to him by Beretta. IMHO, that explains how Wilson was able to write so many books about so many manufacturers, containing so much detailed information. Wilson is now serving time in "The Graybar Hotel" for multiple counts of fraud, but as far as I am aware, his frauds do not affect the accuracy of the data in his Beretta book - the book is as accurate and complete as the data Beretta gave him.
Wilson uses Beretta's model designations and never talks about Galef's model names, although he does discuss the relationship between Beretta and Galef, and later Garcia. Wilson discusses the Model 410, but when he lists the gauges that were made, he never names the 10 gauge. It is as if Beretta never made a 10 gauge gun. However, he does quote an industry profile of the Galef company (1958) which says the product line includes "...two double barrel Silver Hawks, three Silver Hawk Magnums...".
The Blue Book's use of model names is very confused and confusing. They use the number designations (i.e., 410 and 410E) for most listings, but also list a couple of guns under the Silver Hawk designation. They list 2 different guns in 10 gauge. They say the 410 10 gauge was made 1934-81, while the Silver Hawk 10 gauge was discontinued in 1967.
The 1961 Gun Digest lists: "The Silver Hawk Magnum features chrome plated bores, recoil pad fitted, 3" and 3 1/2" chambers. Raised rib bbls only. 10 gauge-32" bbls, weight about 10 lbs, price, two triggers $249.75, single trigger, $267.21". It also lists the Magnum in 12 and 20 gauge. At the same time, the regular Silver Hawk was $167.75 with 2 triggers, $179.75 with single trigger.
OK, here are my guesses, but remember that I can only guess:
1. All Beretta Silver Hawks made during the Galef years were either Beretta's 410-410E series or slightly modified versions of them.
2. The Silver Hawk Magnum was a heavier version of the M410, available in 10, 12, and 20 ga, made by Beretta expressly for Galef.
3. Wilson took his data from Beretta's catalogs, which did not include the Magnum line nor the Silver Hawk name, because Beretta's catalogs were intended for international use, not specifically for the US (and may not have been intended for distribution in the US at all, leaving that to Galef).
4. The Blue Book's dates and model dsignations are confused. I think their dates of 1934-81 apply to the 410 series, but not to the 10 gauge version. I think the 10 gauge was probably discontinued in 1967 (that is about when Galef ceased to import Berettas), and was never imported by Garcia or Beretta USA.
5. The editors of the Blue Book are guessing at values, because they do not see very many 10 gauge Berettas sold, and those that are sold are called by at least 2 different names.
One more point. I hate to have to say this, but depending on the exact nature of it, a "wrist repair" may be the death knell for the value of a SxS gun, expecially a 10 gauge gun. If the wrist is cracked, there is a risk that the recoil of 10 ga shells may turn the whole stock into toothpicks. A repair by an expert (but not your run-of-the-mill gunsmith) may make it strong enough to shoot, but still hurts the value a lot because potential buyers will be suspicious of it.
First, let's talk about model designations in general. During that time period, Beretta did not make any model they called "Silver Hawk". They used numbers and sometimes words in Italian to desgnate their models. When Galef began importing Berettas into the US in 1952, they applied model designations that sounded more "American", and apparently those names were copyrighted by Galef, not by Beretta. The name "Silver Hawk" was a Galef name for the guns that Beretta called 410 or 410E. At some time during the 1960's, following Bennett Galef's death in a plane crash in 1959, Beretta gave the importation rights to Garcia (Beretta USA was created after Garcia went bankrupt). I don't know exactly when the Galef company lost the Beretta rights, but it was after 1961 and before 1968 (I think it was around 1966-67). The Galef company tried to stay in business by selling guns made for them by other manufacturers and using the same names they had previously used on the Berettas. During the period 1968-72, they sold a "Silver Hawk" SxS made by Angelo Zoli. Many years later, Beretta USA obtained rights to the name "Silver Hawk" and began putting it on some of their 470 series guns.
When R. L. Wilson wrote his book "The World of Beretta" (copyright 2000), he apparently did not do any original research, he just rearranged and copied data that was fed to him by Beretta. IMHO, that explains how Wilson was able to write so many books about so many manufacturers, containing so much detailed information. Wilson is now serving time in "The Graybar Hotel" for multiple counts of fraud, but as far as I am aware, his frauds do not affect the accuracy of the data in his Beretta book - the book is as accurate and complete as the data Beretta gave him.
Wilson uses Beretta's model designations and never talks about Galef's model names, although he does discuss the relationship between Beretta and Galef, and later Garcia. Wilson discusses the Model 410, but when he lists the gauges that were made, he never names the 10 gauge. It is as if Beretta never made a 10 gauge gun. However, he does quote an industry profile of the Galef company (1958) which says the product line includes "...two double barrel Silver Hawks, three Silver Hawk Magnums...".
The Blue Book's use of model names is very confused and confusing. They use the number designations (i.e., 410 and 410E) for most listings, but also list a couple of guns under the Silver Hawk designation. They list 2 different guns in 10 gauge. They say the 410 10 gauge was made 1934-81, while the Silver Hawk 10 gauge was discontinued in 1967.
The 1961 Gun Digest lists: "The Silver Hawk Magnum features chrome plated bores, recoil pad fitted, 3" and 3 1/2" chambers. Raised rib bbls only. 10 gauge-32" bbls, weight about 10 lbs, price, two triggers $249.75, single trigger, $267.21". It also lists the Magnum in 12 and 20 gauge. At the same time, the regular Silver Hawk was $167.75 with 2 triggers, $179.75 with single trigger.
OK, here are my guesses, but remember that I can only guess:
1. All Beretta Silver Hawks made during the Galef years were either Beretta's 410-410E series or slightly modified versions of them.
2. The Silver Hawk Magnum was a heavier version of the M410, available in 10, 12, and 20 ga, made by Beretta expressly for Galef.
3. Wilson took his data from Beretta's catalogs, which did not include the Magnum line nor the Silver Hawk name, because Beretta's catalogs were intended for international use, not specifically for the US (and may not have been intended for distribution in the US at all, leaving that to Galef).
4. The Blue Book's dates and model dsignations are confused. I think their dates of 1934-81 apply to the 410 series, but not to the 10 gauge version. I think the 10 gauge was probably discontinued in 1967 (that is about when Galef ceased to import Berettas), and was never imported by Garcia or Beretta USA.
5. The editors of the Blue Book are guessing at values, because they do not see very many 10 gauge Berettas sold, and those that are sold are called by at least 2 different names.
One more point. I hate to have to say this, but depending on the exact nature of it, a "wrist repair" may be the death knell for the value of a SxS gun, expecially a 10 gauge gun. If the wrist is cracked, there is a risk that the recoil of 10 ga shells may turn the whole stock into toothpicks. A repair by an expert (but not your run-of-the-mill gunsmith) may make it strong enough to shoot, but still hurts the value a lot because potential buyers will be suspicious of it.
I agree that this looks like a 409PB. I noted the details of one of these once owned by a friend. It was in the 30,000s serial no, and had Italian proof marks of crown over PSB, crown over crossed rifles and crown over finito on the receiver (the finito meaning it was delivered to the proof house unfinished, which was common). There was no date code stamp on the receiver. The crown means pre 1948, and apparently the absence of a date code usually means 1944, when the Italian war had finished and Beretta in Italy was once again able to resume shotgun production, but before the present sequence of year codings had begun. The proof marks beneath the barrel were identical and the serial no was the same, but in addition there was the Arabic number 12 and a smaller number which seemed to read 950 or 1950. I have no idea what this means: perhaps it was a date, 1950, and that was when the gun was actually put together, but using pre-1948 proofed barrels. All of the component of the gun were matching serial numbers. The question would be resolved if it were possible to date the serial number, but this information is no available as far as I'm aware for the 409PB.
A good condition 409PB is a beautiful gun and I think something of a treasure if you've got one. The workmanship and quality of these guns which were produced for a 'mass-market' compares to much more expensive English guns. Maybe yours can be cleaned up - a little bore gel or solvent applied over the receiver can work wonders. I haven't seen them come up for sale often as they are such nice pieces and when they do I think they get snapped up. They still can be got for under 1000 but with the increased interest in SXS in North America and especially in older quality guns the value will surely go up.
A good condition 409PB is a beautiful gun and I think something of a treasure if you've got one. The workmanship and quality of these guns which were produced for a 'mass-market' compares to much more expensive English guns. Maybe yours can be cleaned up - a little bore gel or solvent applied over the receiver can work wonders. I haven't seen them come up for sale often as they are such nice pieces and when they do I think they get snapped up. They still can be got for under 1000 but with the increased interest in SXS in North America and especially in older quality guns the value will surely go up.
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
Beretta "409PB" 's were generally marked with the model number burned or etched into the concave/grooved surface of the forearm ( that portion covered by the barrels.) These guns were made from c. 1934-1964.
409's were made in 12,16,20 & 28 ... 27-30" barrels with a variety of chokes, double triggers, plain extractors and "P-o-W" style pistol grip stocks. 410E's were of somewhat higher quality & finish, fitted with ejectors. 411E's were a more highly finished version yet, with false sideplates.
The 410 (no "E" suffix) was produced as a heavily constructed 32" -10ga. version, reportedly from c.1934 - 1981.
409's were made in 12,16,20 & 28 ... 27-30" barrels with a variety of chokes, double triggers, plain extractors and "P-o-W" style pistol grip stocks. 410E's were of somewhat higher quality & finish, fitted with ejectors. 411E's were a more highly finished version yet, with false sideplates.
The 410 (no "E" suffix) was produced as a heavily constructed 32" -10ga. version, reportedly from c.1934 - 1981.
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
