Identification Needed

Keller

Keller

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NE Ontario
Alright guys, this may belong in the Ammo section but I prefer to try my luck with the knowledge base here in Milsurp first.

This piece belonged to my Great Grandfather who fought for Canada in France during WWI. I have no idea what it would be fired from and would love your help in identifying it.

I do not know for certain that it's from the WWI era but that seems the most likely to me.

The OAL is 5 inches, the diameter of the base is 1-1/2", and the diameter of the case body is approx 1-1/4".

The projectile is lead but the base of it is copper; or at least appears to be copper when shining a light through the hole in the base.

I've placed it beside some familiar rifle cartridges for size reference.


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And since everyone likes a good round of show-and-tell here are a few other items that I have of his.

His identity discs and matchbox.

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The battles he was involved in? Towns he was stationed in?

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The bullet he was wounded by. Family legend says that the bullet struck his rifle, splintered the wood, and was redirected into his neck.

Million dollar wound and a hell of a souvenir of his good fortune!

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The BULLET is a German 1904-pattern "IS" model, generally called the "JS" because the German letter "I", when written in Fraktur type, looks ike a "J". Hundred and fifty-four grains, diameter .323" and it started off at 2880 ft/sec: nastier than a .30-'06 by almost 200 it/sec AND a heavier bullet. I have one here, although not beaten-up, that my Great-Uncle sent back. He is still over there, nobody knows where. Gordon Highlanders, the clan regiment for that side of the family. Grandpa was a VERY lucky man!

That huge CASING was made by Royal Laboratories at Woolwich Arsenal. It has been fired, factory reloaded, fired again and swiped. The Lead bullet, I suspect, could be home-made. Primer assembly has been unscrewed by somebody who knew his business. I suspect it could be for a one-pounder automatic gun, but can't say for sure.

There is a 1924 Pocket Book of Service Ammunition available for free download over at milsurps dot com.This round WILL be in that one, as it lists any types which have become obsolete since the end of "the war". That's the book I'm going to hit to search this baby out. You should scoot on over there, take out a (free) membership and download your own copy.... along with anything else which piques your imagination or tweaks your curiosity.

GREAT remembrances.

Thanks for sharing them with us.
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Wow smellie, thank you so much!

I did have a feeling that the bullet was home made but the copper base on it got me thinking otherwise.
 
The large cartridge is a 1" aiming rifle ctg. It was used in a sub calibre device in large artillery pieces from the 1880s to 1940s. It was mostly used by the coast artillery and the navy. The bullet is correct and was fitted with a gas check. This particular round was reloaded at Woolwich (RL).
The 1" aiming rifle ctg progressed through 20 marks, black powder and cordite loaded, percussion and electric primed.
 
green said:
The large cartridge is a 1" aiming rifle ctg. It was used in a sub calibre device in large artillery pieces from the 1880s to 1940s. It was mostly used by the coast artillery and the navy. The bullet is correct and was fitted with a gas check. This particular round was reloaded at Woolwich (RL).
The 1" aiming rifle ctg progressed through 20 marks, black powder and cordite loaded, percussion and electric primed.
Click to expand...

Amazing, thank you green!

If you Google Images "aiming rifle ctg", the first picture that comes up is almost identical. Obviously if there were 20 marks for this type of cartridge than there are bound to be differences; only one I see is the waist. It's cool to see what the bullet looks like and the copper gas check solves the copper base seen through the primer hole.

The only thing I'm not certain about is how a 1" bullet fired from a larger calibre bore would do anything other than bounce all the way up the barrel.
 
Keller said:
Amazing, thank you green!

If you Google Images "aiming rifle ctg", the first picture that comes up is almost identical. Obviously if there were 20 marks for this type of cartridge than there are bound to be differences; only one I see is the waist. It's cool to see what the bullet looks like and the copper gas check solves the copper base seen through the primer hole.

The only thing I'm not certain about is how a 1" bullet fired from a larger calibre bore would do anything other than bounce all the way up the barrel.
Click to expand...

To give to the mechanics of how it works, here is a simple sub-caliber insert that allows .22lr rounds to be shot from a flare gun....same idea with the big guns. The insert has a rifled section so the bullet flys true down the bore.
Some of the big guns would have an entire barrel sleeve that would get installed in order to shoot these aiming rounds.
flareguninsert_lg.jpg
 
The big gun would have a subcalibre sleeve and short barrel installed inside the full-calibre barel. The performance of the Aiming Ammunition would have been matched to the performance of the big shell it was subbing for. That will be why so many different Marks: same CASING with different LOADS, each one to sub for a different FULL ARTILLERY LOADING.

Aiming Rifle ammo. Why didn't I think of that? Going senile, I guess.
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The ballistics of all marks of the aiming rifle ctg were about the same. The differences were in the primers, electric primed Morris or Kings Norton, percussion primed, bullet, paper patched lead, grooved lead gas check, metal jacketed, steel with driveing band and propellant BP or cordite.
"British Small Arms Ammunition 1864-1938" Labett
 
Hitzy said:
To give to the mechanics of how it works, here is a simple sub-caliber insert that allows .22lr rounds to be shot from a flare gun....same idea with the big guns. The insert has a rifled section so the bullet flys true down the bore.
Some of the big guns would have an entire barrel sleeve that would get installed in order to shoot these aiming rounds.
flareguninsert_lg.jpg
Click to expand...

Ahh a barrel sleeve, that makes sense now. :redface:
 
sunray said:
"...how a 1" bullet..." One pound, not 1". 37mm. Sub-calibre arty barrels were for training. U.S. used a 1903A2 Springfield rifle receivers in tanks guns for the same purpose.
The One Pounder MG was one or the other of these. Anti-aircraft.
Click to expand...

The bullet in this cartridge is definitely not a "one pounder". As stated by green it is almost certainly a 1" Aiming Rifle Cartridge. I'm not able to get an accurate measurement of the bullet diameter as the lead has mushroomed over the top of the case with the handling it's seen in the 90 some odd years since it was made. With the outside diameter of the case being approximately 1-1/4" I would imagine that the inside diameter is very close to if not exactly 1". Definitely too small to be a 37mm round from a "Pom Pom" gun.

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