Identify some oldies.

[Casull]

Here are two very old guns I own. I know very little about either. The long gun has been described as a "Trade" gun, being somehow related to the early fur trade in our country.
It obviously started life as a flintlock and at some time a long time ago someone clamped a piece of metal in the jaws and put a drum and nipple where the frizzen used to be. The bore on both allow my Groz bore gauge to just pass 11/16ths inch making them about 16 gauge. They are both not rifled though no longer the smooth bores they once were.
The long gun's barrel is 39" long, the pistol's 10" long. The long gun has an old wrist repair of coiled wire. The pistol has a lot of brass furniture and decorative design. My wife calls it a "Pirate Pistol" and I can't argue. The long gun has a full ramrod, the pistol just a stub. Both are decorative and very nice looking rods. The butt of the pistol has a lot of brass also. The long gun has a shotgun type butt. It also has a bead out front and an improvised rear sight that appears to be a rough piece of steel or iron filed to a shallow V and screwed down ahead of the upper tang.
The lock of the long gun is marked BOND and there is a crown or flower on the lock towards the wrist. The barrel is marked on top, LONDON. The lock is still functional.
The lock of the pistol is in much better shape but the only markings I see seem to be under the lock springs. There appear to be Roman Numerals though I cannot see them all. I will disassemble the lock one brave day to see if I can read the markings. This flintlock works okay.
I have not fired either though I may someday with a medium load of Bullseye and a heavy charge of shot.
That is a joke by the way.
I know the pictures are poor, but does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on these two? They are obviously very old and there is pitting and wear in many places. They seem to have been well built and fitted. In the lower pictures of the pistol, it appears to have a gold tint to it, but that is not true in real, the wood is dark brown and the lock silver and brass furniture and a long section of folded brass sealing the barrel to forestock. It is folded under tight and then decorated with patterns in the brass.
What are the approximate ages of these?
The pistol lives on my mantle and encourages conversation and the rifle, my son has abducted to hang in his room. I have looked them over plenty and searched the net some for info. I am wondering if you guys have any more info for me. I have had them each for a year or so.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[WR1894]

Rob
My guess on the pistol is that it may be Arabian, it has the miquelet lock which is mediterian (mostly Spannish) and the decoration looks that area or maybe Turkish
The fowling piece is likely English, it is hard to tell is the barrel octagon at the breech or round. I am going to guess that it was wood right to the end of the barrel orginal. There was a lot of guns made like that for the colinies of the British empire but also they traded a lot to the Indians. One of the big things for the trade guns was a brass shaped serpent on the side of the gun were the screws go though the stock to hold the lock in, plus a fox engraved on the lock plate so I have read.
This is my guess on these 2
John

 

[mooncoon]

I would agree with the Turkish/Arab origin of the pistol for a number of reasons already described. The shotgun I would describe as being a basic fowler, converted from flint and you can see the frizzen screw hole ahead of the drum on the lock plate. If you remove the barrel, you should find either a belgian or a birmingham proof on the bottom of the barrel at the breach end.
I would not describe the gun as a trade gun because these were quite distinctive with the serpent side plate and large trigger guard. Usually but not always a fox on the barrel and lockplate and usually about 26 or 24 guage (roughly .60 cal).

cheers mooncoon

 

[MD]

Sorry, can't help you, but you have a pm about our previous discussion.

 

[Casull]

I got around to checking them out a bit more. The long gun does not have a serpent on the opposite side from the lock. Also it does not look as though it was cut down, the stock appears to have always been a half stock.
Does anyone shoot guns of this vintage? They appear solid enough, I guess with a reasonably light charge of black powder they should be safe enough.
Can anyone give me an approximate date on these? They obviously started life as flintlocks so that would mean they should have been made prior to about 1840? Any thoughts.
Thanks guys,
Rob

 

[mooncoon]

I shoot guns made as early as 1800 and frequently shoot ones made in the 1840 - 1860 era. It is sort of a personal judgement call based on the condition of each gun.
I am guessing that the long gun was made towards the end of the flintlock era but that is a wild guess. I think the miquelet pistol could have been made anytime up to 1860 or so because I am under the impression that flintlocks continued to be made in Arab countries for some time after they ceased in the western world but again no strong data
Finally I think you would be wise to pull the breach plug on the fowler and confirm the threads are OK then put it back in with some loktite or similar to seal the threads from fouling. Remember you will probably need to remove the drum first and I would suggest replacing the drum at the same time and this will allow you to tap the new one for 1/4 x 28 threaded nipples instead of the 26 tpi which it probably is right now.
Expect also to have to do some mild reaming on the inside of the barrel because it is probably pitted right now. Shallow pitting is not too bad but deeper ones make cleaning difficult plus weakening the barrel.

cheers mooncoon

 

[nessy357]

X2 What mooncoon said.
I have an old fowler of that era that I shoot, it's original perc and in good condition.
I've seen that conversion IIRC that was quite common in the East Coast ?
Is the tang screw solid ?
There's a good chance the nipple takes #12 caps also.

Cheers nessy.

 

[Casull]

I tried to take the long gun apart today for the first time. The tang screw is good and has a really old "sight" on it that is a piece of thin metal with a hole through it to take the screw and an upward curl on one end with a sight V filed into it. It actually makes a usuable sight with the front bead. The locks screws are in good condition also. There is a pin or what looks like an old nail through the front where a cross pin would be on some guns. The old nail or whatever it is is badly rusted and does not come out to the other side. I am afraid of getting anything in there to drift it out as it has a tiny point and the wood appears to have the start of a split there. I will figure out a way to get this out.
The nipple takes #11 caps tightly. It may originally have had #12s. It there is a clean hole through this nipple I will use it and not replace with a new one. I have not yet tried to get the drum off.

 

[mooncoon]

Original nipples can have badly rusted threads; you need to be able to remove the nipple to confirm the threads are ok and after shooting, it is standard practice to remove the nipple for cleaning. Coat the threads with a heavy grease to prevent fouling from working its way into them. If the nipple is difficult to remove, after shooting, plug it, put some warm water in the barrel and wait a few minutes. The fouling softens fairly quickly.
You have a second concern re old nipples; many or most of them were made with a large hole at the bottom and a small one at the top. In that condition you do not get reliable ignition. With time the hole becomes gas eroded to a large hole all the way through. That is a problem because you get too much crud and corruption being blown back up during shooting. With a weak hammer spring or a particularly large hole, it can also blow the hammer back to 1/2 #### or more in my experience.
I seem to recall that you have a lathe; nipples are not that hard to make, assuming you have number drills. The thread diameter of the nipple is probably 26 tpi. The diameter can vary from . 240 to about .260 from gun to gun.

cheers mooncoon

 

[dingus]

Man theres alot about these old percusion guns to watch out for eh!

I never checked out any of thos things on the big 10 ga SXS percusion shotgun i had, guess i got lucky eh? No nippiles sticking thru my forehead everything worked good